The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

Presenting an all Tula marked 1943 M91/30 Sniper. Refurbished, yes. But in near pristine condition. I have only seen one other gun like it.

Let The Feeding Frenzy Begin! Ladling the bloody chum into the choppy waters. Sharks, have at it. Pick it apart, please! Be honest. Give praise. Be brutal if needed. But feedback is wanted. Also, where did this gun get its refurbishment? And how did it appear in this country, in this configuration?

No import marks on this one. Every part is Tula. Deep re-bluing, rear sight in the white, stock has oil finish. Real or fake, it has got to be the most gorgeous Tula M91/30 that I have ever seen.

I have my own thoughts, but what say you? Pics. Lots of them. And thanks for looking.

Looks perfectly nice to me, but I am no expert on Soviet snipers, I will leave the picking apart, and disemboweling ( if any) to others more in the know

I just think your one lucky son of a gun

Jumperwire wrote:I just think your one lucky son of a gun

Take a look at your own sniper, jumper. The one in the beech stock, that is.

There are many similarities between this gun and your Polish sniper. Methinks the one above may very well have sneaked into the US via Poland, too.

1. Barrel shank was never stamped with a Tula serial, which should read as follows: No. Two Cyrillic letters, XXX.

This barrel shank is stamped in a very unusual font, no scrubbings or refurb marks, either. All other numbers are deeply, and neatly stamped.




2. War-time stock has never been upgraded with the finger relief cuts behind the rear barrel band, and never stamped with a refurb mark. It is very lightly sanded, and has an oil finish, inside and out.





3. No import marks. Metal is polished on the muzzle end of the barrel and receiver. Very deep, rich bluing as can be found on other Polish Sniper refurbs.





Rear sight leaf in the white, as on other Polish Sniper refurbs.




Mount is deeply stamped with "1958", and it has no other numerical relation to the gun - like other Polish Snipers.




And the Polish Sling is another big hint.



Hmmm.....

I will take your word for it, trick would be if the rifle starts "talking" to you in Polish

The first thing I noticed was there's Tula stars everywhere and in places I never see it. The serial is weird looking but that Polish sling is what really jumped out at me. The one I have on my M44 is a carbine sling with the green paint on the dog collars and tension buckle but all of the leather on mine is natural color on the dog collars as well as the strength patches sewn into the material as well as the tension strap. This one seems to have black leather. Matt where the hell do you find this stuff. Are you in the Mosin Maffia or something? 'Święto Dziękczynienia'

Cool factor is

martin08 wrote:

Jumperwire wrote:I just think your one lucky son of a gun

Take a look at your own sniper, jumper. The one in the beech stock, that is.

There are many similarities between this gun and your Polish sniper. Methinks the one above may very well have sneaked into the US via Poland, too.

Ya' know, I was looking at it on my phone at first and thought that the stock looked like it was beech. I was telling my wife, man that wood looks as good as my polish one.

I didn't catch the rest, but now that you mention it. Even more WOW and your still a lucky son of a gun.

I am now sure. Martin sold his soul to the Devil, who pulls these rifles out of a time machine.

Real or fake I sure couldn't tell, but it may be like a transexual; if you can't tell the difference, what is the difference?

Oh boy

WeldonHunter wrote:The first thing I noticed was there's Tula stars everywhere and in places I never see it. The serial is weird looking but that Polish sling is what really jumped out at me. The one I have on my M44 is a carbine sling with the green paint on the dog collars and tension buckle but all of the leather on mine is natural color on the dog collars as well as the strength patches sewn into the material as well as the tension strap. This one seems to have black leather. Matt where the hell do you find this stuff. Are you in the Mosin Maffia or something? 'Święto Dziękczynienia'

Cool factor is

This one sat right under everyone's noses for a couple of months in Cabela's Gun Library, and was also listed on Gun's International. But at a list price of $1,199.00, it likely got skipped over very quickly.

With some very persistent contact with the store, and some prodding for them to investigate other Russian PU sources and pricing, they finally caved in. When they called me to tell me that they were dropping the price to $599, I snapped it up immediately. Truth be known, I had already offered them $800! Can't figure that one out, but I'm not arguing, and I still have $200 left over in my pocket.

On the sling, I'll get some better pics of all the leather tabs and stitching. Most certainly Polish.

Six hundred bucks? Someone over there must be on crack Very good deal! Best PU deal I have yet heard of in recent years.

This thing has the "b.s. detector" bells and alarms in the back of my head going off like Quasimodo on speed.

The mount is recent/current Ukrainan reprodicton with bogus "1958" marking, and base is either (maybe) post-war Soviet or (most likely) recent production - hard to tell without examining it up close and personal - with bogus markings that make it a lot harder to tell exactly what it is.

The stock is 1942-43 Izhevsk with bogus Tula star. I don't have one of my genuine 1943 DATED Tula PU stocks handy to compare but this one just looks wrong.

The scope with the 1965 refurb date is wrong for the rifle.

The sling is Russian.

Somebody who doesn't know (or care) what this rifle SHOULD look like went through a lot of effort to fool someone who doen't know what this rifle should look like.

It could be a real PU rifle that someone really azzed up, it could be one of the sniper proofed, non-drilled and tapped, "accuracy rifles" that someone made a fake sniper out of, or it could be a very poorly restored ex-sniper.

Marcus wrote:This thing has the "b.s. detector" bells and alarms in the back of my head going off like Quasimodo on speed.

The mount is recent/current Ukrainan reprodicton with bogus "1958" marking, and base is either (maybe) post-war Soviet or (most likely) recent production - hard to tell without examining it up close and personal - with bogus markings that make it a lot harder to tell exactly what it is.

The stock is 1942-43 Izhevsk with bogus Tula star. I don't have one of my genuine 1943 DATED Tula PU stocks handy to compare but this one just looks wrong.

The scope with the 1965 refurb date is wrong for the rifle.

The sling is Russian.

Somebody who doesn't know (or care) what this rifle SHOULD look like went through a lot of effort to fool someone who doen't know what this rifle should look like.

It could be a real PU rifle that someone really azzed up, it could be one of the sniper proofed, non-drilled and tapped, "accuracy rifles" that someone made a fake sniper out of, or it could be a very poorly restored ex-sniper.

And believe me, Marcus. It took me two months of research to dare to touch this one. So, I appreciate your views.

But just to ask a few key questions.

1. Why did a 1943 CH-marked Tula shank never receive a Tula serial number scheme? And no evidence of scrubbing exists.




2. There is also no evidence of scrubbing of import marks, refurb stamps on the barrel shank, or the serial on the side of the receiver. Were any of the accuracy rifles ever imported before the '68 import laws? Or, any imported without Tula serial numbers?







3. Would not a post war base, late 1950's Ukrainian mount, and 1960's dated scope be possibilities for a Polish refurb?

Pics of the markings on the base.





And lastly, to what end would someone with obvious arsenal-style skills have built a Sniper clone that had no market appeal? I know that is a subjective question, and may not have any answer - putting together all the features (and lack of features), would serve very little purpose, I know.

I studied archives upon archives of humped sniper threads, and found none with the particular configuration above. Doesn't mean that there can't be a first time, though. But have you ever seen anything like this, either?

1. The serial number with 2 Cyrillic letters and 4 numbers is not common on Tula Mosins, but is occasionally encountered on firearms from the late 1943 to early 1944 period. Other Mosins with non-standard serial numbers are known, although we know nothing about what the significance of these serial numbers is.

2. Not all recently imported rifles have import marks. Some just missed them, rifles do come into the country through various ways - including bring-backs and Canada - that don't get import marks. Many obviously refurbed rifles have no refurb markings, especially ones refurbed right after WW2. Generally, any Mosin 91/30's and snipers that came in before 1968 would be bring-backs from Germany, Korea, or Viet Nam. From 1968 to the mid-1980's Germany would be the source - those brought through commercial channels would have West German proof marks, but those obtained through other means wouldn't. Some import marks, like the ones from Aztec, are very light and could be easily removed or hidden under the base. It also could very well have started out as a real sniper before someone started dicking with it. Since it has been refinished - where, when, and by who, we know not - there is no telling that marks it may or may not have had before it got boinked. This is really sad - this thing could have had a lot of history and things that could have been learned from it if someone had just left it alone.

3. First off, you have to free your mind of this "Polish connection" wish, and just look at the rifle for what it is. I see nothing that says it is or isn't Polish issue, just things that are wrong with it. If it was Polish refurbed, they would have used either a Soviet base and/or mount - of which they had plenty, or a Polish made mount. If you want to see a Polish made mount from this period, do a search on the Gunboards Trader for the scope and mount setup "Enfield Trader" (Thad Eckman) has for sale. I don't know if the markings on the base (other than the obviously fraudulent Tula star) are real or not - the jiggery-pokery bumfuggery on the rest of the rifle casts doubt on it. If I had received it years ago from one of my sources in Eastern Europe, I could vouch for it. As it is, it is a very suspicious unknown. I have owned a LOT of Soviet era post-war bases, some marked and some not, and the only marking on this one that comes close is the O (oh) or 0 (zero) on the front of the top edge. Yes, it could very well be straight and real as a post-war Soviet military/commercial base, but again, the cloud on the rifle taints it also. The mount looks like one from Fotodevice, before they started stamping the fake Izhevsk markings on them. Could be late Soviet or early post-Soviet..but the date on it is bogus.

I've seen a lot of fake or "enhanced" things (the saddest thing is when you see something real that some dipspit had to "improve" by applying incorrect and bogus markings, like a late war Kriegsmodel Mauser that had fake Hitler chickens stamped on the properly unmarked stock or a straight original WW2 PU mount that some donk electropenciled fake numbers on to match a Yugo or Polish issue rifle that would never have had e.p.'ed numbers), and I've also seen a lot of non-standard, often one-of-a-kind things that are real, despite what everyone else says or thinks.

I don't have any of my real '43 Tula PU rifles here right now, but just operating off possibly faulty memory, the CH marking on your rifle may not be correct...I seem to recall that '43 had bigger letters, where as '44 was smaller. Look at the H in your serial number and the sniper proof marking - if they are identical font with the same little unique features, something is wrong.

You really need to pull the base off this rifle and see what is underneath.

There are some photos of a real Polish issue Ww2 PU rifle (an Izhevsk) in one of the ads I have on the Gunboards Trader, unfortunately the photos are real small for some reason and will not enlarge.

At any rate, at $600 you didn't get hurt. If it were mine, I would leave it alone if I could determine that it might have been something assembled on a real Tula PU sniper in Eastern Europe in the post-war Soviet era, and if I decided that it had been seriously donked and the parts like the mount and base were wrong/bogus, I have the correct parts to restore it. Again, really hard to say without examining the rifle in person...

And again, Marcus, your input is appreciated - especially in the thoroughness of addressing the questions that I asked.

Here's a couple more of my observations, and my opinion, of course. I have seen odd serial number combinations on Mosins. The extent of 1943 Tulas that can be raised in searches won't come up with one that is missing the "No." that precedes all of them. So, this one is strange for sure. Strange enough to be different from the very beginning. And no one faked it. The picture can't be any clearer. Not being contrary, of course, just observant of a phenomenon.

No need to view a picture of a Polish PU. I have an Izhevsk disassembled on the bench next to this Tula. The finishes are uncannily similar. Exposed barrel metal on the muzzle end is polished on both. Receivers are polished on both. A deep and rich bluing is applied to both, that is not similar to any other of my Mosins. Neither has any Polish stamping, nor any Soviet refurb stampings, nor US import marks. Both have identical removal of bluing from the rear sight leaf.






Please excuse the old pics from the cheap camera on the Izhevsk. But for sure, with the two barreled receivers in hand, they are exuding the correct vibes, and the physical characteristics.

Scope bases. I'm no student. I can't dispute any of your experience or observations. The mount? I can find no other with a date stamped into it. But again, It may not be a date, and I have not seen them all. Just none like it, yet.

Again, much appreciated, Marcus.

Yeah, the serial number is odd in that it doesn't have the "No" above it. But as light as the star is struck and looking at the particularly light 4 in the date, is it possible that this marking was very lightly struck and then buffed off if the rifle was refurbed? It appears from some of the photo that there are traces of light pitting under the finish on the end of the barrel (I think I saw that in one of the photo on Gunboards) and on the barrel shank. If not, then perhaps it simply never was stamped there, either by intent or neglect. Like I say, the extra number in the serial number is uncommon but not unheard of.

As far as WW2 Tula PU rifles go, I only have a '42 here with me right now that I just dragged out of the closet to do a little comparison. The "CH" on mine looks to be the same size and font as on yours. All the barrel shank markings on mine are very crisp and clear, but as I recall '43 Tula rifles usually have very lightly struck markings and I think '44s are also well struck...but it could be the other way around for the '43 and '44.

Interesting comparison of the 2 rifles above. With the similarity in finish, this could be a Polish rifle. Still, the base and mount are wrong, and the Tula star with no date on an Izhevsk stock is a problem too...how sad it would be if someone dicked the rifles stock up in an attempt to make it all Tula.

Looking at the buttplate, in the photos it looks like one of the earlier style milled ones, not the WW2 stamped ones. The stamped ones are thinner, so the countersink for the top screw goes down below the bottom of the plate, and there is a little countersink in the stock to match it - what does your buttplate and stock look like with the buttplate removed from the stock?

Something I also can't tell from the photos, is the front band retaining spring stamped or milled? Also, what - if any - are the markings on the forend nose cap?

What do the scope and mount on your other rifle look like? Do you know any history or origin on that rifle?

Again, it would be interesting to see what the receiver under the base looks like with the base removed

Just for comparison sake here's what my 1943 Tula PU looks like below. Below that is a 1940 Tula with no "No." marking. I know it's a different year but it shows the placement of markings on one without that stamp. Also out of 10 Tula rifles I have from 1929 to 1943 all have the "No." above the date except the 1940.

Thanks for posting the 1943 photos and the 1940 without the No. Big CH on that '43 - that's what I thought they usually look like. I pulled the '39 PEM that I have here with me out, it has nice clear markings like your '40, but of course with the No and it has the "cn" sniper proof marking that was used before '42.

Thanks again for the input, gents.

It was tough researching this gun for the markings. Some deep stamped, some light. Some neat, some very sloppy. Some with star and arrow, some with just the star and no arrow. Most all with the No. above the serial, but one with an X instead. Large CH, small CH. Or, like the one pictured above, a large C and a small H.

1943 was not a consistent year.

I'll pull the buttplate later today to see if it has the countersink in the wood. And the front band is definitely stamped. Never checked the nose cap, but I will.

The Polish stocked sniper came from a collection that a widow was holding since her husband's death in 1975. There was a tag on it that said it was bought in 1970 for $47. I'll try to get some pics of marks on the base and mount, but as I recall, there wasn't much.