The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

I was just looking at some of the posts last night and I thought I noticed Molot stampings on the Rgun PU's is that so???

Classic arms PU's are from Molot as well.

No, Rguns PU's are post WW2 Ukrainian refurbs like all the rest of the 91/30's, they are not touched by Molot.

RGuns rifles came out of Ukrainian National Police inventory, having been transfered there from Red Army stores back in the Soviet era. The RGuns rifles are to one degree or another refurbs, but the best of them are completely original except for a little touch up to the original shellac or a coat of refurb shellac applied over the original, and there are also some interesting variations and armorers modifications that have showed up in those rifles.

The ATI rifles came from a similar police organization in the Russian Federation.

Marcus wrote:RGuns rifles came out of Ukrainian National Police inventory, having been transfered there from Red Army stores back in the Soviet era. The RGuns rifles are to one degree or another refurbs, but the best of them are completely original except for a little touch up to the original shellac or a coat of refurb shellac applied over the original, and there are also some interesting variations and armorers modifications that have showed up in those rifles.

The ATI rifles came from a similar police organization in the Russian Federation.

Ya I saw the ATI were from molot. They have their MOxxxxxx serial numbers.

There have been several discussions recently concerning these PU's, search the board and you will turn them up.

Junk Yard Dog wrote:There have been several discussions recently concerning these PU's, search the board and you will turn them up.

Well from what I can glean off of the internet it appears that Rguns were arsenal refinished and Molot's were arsenal refinished and then commercially done. It is interesting to hear all of the thoughts on it.

I am willing to believe Classic is selling authentic PU snipers since the serial number for the scope, mount and barrel are all stamped the same. I will not take it apart to look at the marking in the barrel channel...if there are any. It certainly shoots like one!

We are not saying much about the Molot PU's because there is still controversy surrounding their exact origins. The company involved in them, who;s name is on them is known for fakes, nobody seems to have verifiable documentation on anything. I would not spend my money on them without total assurance that I was buying the real thing.

Junk Yard Dog wrote:We are not saying much about the Molot PU's because there is still controversy surrounding their exact origins. The company involved in them, who;s name is on them is known for fakes, nobody seems to have verifiable documentation on anything. I would not spend my money on them without total assurance that I was buying the real thing.

TOOOOOOOO late...........She's going to the range today since there is no wind and it's a beautiful day in Northeast Missouri

The mystery continues.......................................................

At least if it is a fake they didn't bang you the full grand, I hope it works out well.

Junk Yard Dog wrote:At least if it is a fake they didn't bang you the full grand, I hope it works out well.

It will all come down to who ever you decide to believe at some point. ALL documents and information is only as good as the person who wrote them or gave the information.

Was anyone their when Rguns bought the snipers that didn't have something to gain from the process?

I'm not into the paranonia that comes with collecting and verification.

IF they did fake these they did a great job. I not worried if someone says, "It's a fake" it's only their opinion based on whatever someone else wanted them to know or they heard from someone or found a document that someone lied about and they believe.

I have found in my law enforcement career that the people you trust most are the ones that lie to your face and you never find out until years later.

I don't mean to insult anyone it's just my opinion on the matter. Nothing is verifiable unless you were there making them and had a total paper trail from WWII..That will never be found especially from RUSSIA??? Yea right. I don't trust them at all....lol

You see me collecting snipers...nope....thoes who do, and have the knowledge to know trust in R Guns, Dolk has a few posts up someplace about these. Maybe one day the documentation will come to light on this latest batch of PU's and PU collectors will trust in them as well, who knows, but so far there remain questions. I have one PU sniper, it was a trophy of war brought home from Vietnam, I bought it from the man who brought it home, he was known to me, and his story was verified by others I trust, and being a Hungarian PU it would be very difficult to fake. That is the only way I would be enticed to buy a PU sniper rifle as I can't stand them as shooters, otherwise I prefer to collect the ordinary infantry rifles carried by the ordinary Joe's who fight and win or lose wars.

neorebel wrote:It will all come down to who ever you decide to believe at some point. ALL documents and information is only as good as the person who wrote them or gave the information.

Or refuse to give any information. In which case it leaves a void and a reason to doubt any and all of legitimacy of the rifle.

neorebel wrote:Was anyone their when Rguns bought the snipers that didn't have something to gain from the process?

Yes there was. Vic the owner of another forum saw the rifles for sale there and tried to buy them at the time. RGUNS beat him to it. He also inspected them when they came back to the US before RGUNS started selling them. RGUNS has the documents in each case of snipers showing they are snipers and their serial numbers. They have not released all of those papers and may never, but Vic was given some of them. There is no question they were original PU snipers that were refurbished to different degrees by the Arsenals and not "put togethers". This information is available elsewhere if you want to look it up. There is also a lot of "mis-information" on the rifles also. The rifles went from the military (WWII) to the arsenals and refurbished. Then to a police agency there in Russia for use by them. Then back to the arsenals. Then sold to RGUNS. That is established and known and confirmed by several well know people. RGUNS did not try to "hide" anything.

neorebel wrote:I'm not into the paranonia that comes with collecting and verification.

If you are not, then you will probably in all due respect "get screwed" at some point, because there are people out there that will "hump" anything to make a buck. That is simple fact. Without due "diligence", you will get "taken" if you don't have some concern when buying a sniper....any sniper, Russian, American, English and so on. The money attracts the jerks and thefts.

neorebel wrote: IF they did fake these they did a great job. I not worried if someone says, "It's a fake" it's only their opinion based on whatever someone else wanted them to know or they heard from someone or found a document that someone lied about and they believe.

Great job according to who? It take a trained eye to know that, and as much as I know about snipers, I am still on the fence about these and waiting until someone give more information and it will come sooner than later. They may well turn out to have a "good" paper trail, but at present there is no way to know for sure. Only people getting on the internet and saying they are real when they know nothing about them at all and have no dealing in the original transaction. I hope they are real, but I have my snipers already and they are a "known" quantity, so I don't need to take any chances in buying any more. I leave them to you guys to buy and wait for the truth.

neorebel wrote:I have found in my law enforcement career that the people you trust most are the ones that lie to your face and you never find out until years later.

Exactly!You hit it right on the head.

neorebel wrote:I don't mean to insult anyone it's just my opinion on the matter. Nothing is verifiable unless you were there making them and had a total paper trail from WWII..That will never be found especially from RUSSIA??? Yea right. I don't trust them at all....lol

Your not insulting anyone because in all due respect, your not an "expert" in PU snipers. It is an opinion and that is all. Just like the thousands of opinions that have gone on the internet about these rifles already.

I can tell you this with my "limited" knowledge of sniper (I don't consider myself an expert even if others do), the parts of the rifles are real PU sniper parts. That's for sure. I have confered with other forum owners and many "I" consider experts and the "parts" are real PU sniper parts and not "Fake" or "Reproduction" parts.

The question on these rifles is:

1) When were they refurbished

2) Were they made up of "Parts" and never were in sniper configuration (whole) after WWII.

3) Were they put together from real parts just recently by Molot? What exactly was their "part" in all of this? Molot has a reputation and a history of making snipers from standard infantry M910/30's and mounting fake or reproduction scopes on them. They have been doing it for years now. So this "muddys up" the water. Why were they involved?

4) Why are there so many "differences" in the way the Russians handled these snipers compared to all other "known" snipers like modern font stamps on the side of the barrel shank, or Tula snipers with scope numbers on the side of the barrel when they never did that in the past?

All of these questions raise a "red flag" on these rifles and need to be answered, and probably will be over the next few years. These are all "red flags" that the RGUNS snipers do not have.

Now, that is my opinion....take it or leave it. But, I hope that these rifles end up being "real" and not "put togethers". But even if they are "put togethers", they are no different than the Samco snipers missing the base, mount and scopes that people buy and add the missing parts. They were always a sniper rifle in sniper configuration and in my opinion even if they added "real parts" to them to complete them, they have "sniper value" same as a Samco or the original snipers imported and parts added to complete them by Century (?). Still a good value.

I don't believe they are "ex-sniper" that have been "re-snipered". At worse (and it's not so terrible), they are snipers that were missing parts and "real parts" added to complete them. But without the entire story, we will never really know. And yes, someday we will probably know the entire story. Russia doesn't hold the secrets, the importer do.

Dolk

Thanks for the reply Dolk. It is interesting to see everyones perspective on the subject. I haven't seen a lot of opinions on Molot.

When did they do this faking?

What did they fake?

neorebel wrote:Thanks for the reply Dolk. It is interesting to see everyones perspective on the subject. I haven't seen a lot of opinions on Molot.

When did they do this faking?

What did they fake?

They made standard M91/30 rifles kind of like Mitchels Mausers do Mausers. And, 91/30's with scopes (including a PU version).

They have done them for years but were never available here in the US.

Here is just one version. They have a closer PU sniper version they used to make also.

http://molot.biz/product-e/ko91-30.php

Ya I saw the site..............butt ugly scope mount!!

i do not miss sleep over PU snipers being the real deal. my PW ARMS is for sure a reproduction. at least the scope and mounts are post WW 2 Russian parts. they did a good job on the install and i did not have to screw with the mount to zero it in. i bet a lot of real sniper owners worry about if they got had.

It's an interesting subject with no concrete answer. My sniper scope matches my mount and barrel just above the wood line. It has all of the accuracy markings on the barrel the u in the c. C marked on of the receiver to the right of mount, TK 1791 which is in the right series, rebuild or arsenaled in 1957. The trigger is very smooth and crisp. The bolt like is smooth and fast.

So if they did fake it they sure did a great job with getting all of the stamps right and so on.

I personally stopped taking anyones word for anything years ago. I do the research and buy accordingly. No one will be able to figure out if this is a "Fake" or not anyway. It's all opinions that's all in the end and at some point you're just taking someones word as truth.


I will venture to say everyones probably tired of the subject by this point. I see treads back to 2008 on it.

I was just out shooting it today with milsurp ammo. Still shooting a 1 inch group. I sighted it in today with some hunting rounds. She's going hunting this year!!!!