The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

Hey again guys,
I got a few more questions about 1 of my guns.

I got this this Kentucky Repo Italian 45 Cal in 1977-80 from my Paw-Paw for Christmas.I can't remember the exact year I was 9-11 years old.

This gun has never been shot.I hunted my whole childhood but I used shotguns and 22 rifles.

I always loved this gun,the way it looks and the history of these kind of rifles.I always kept it clean and oiled and in the cabinet.I just never did learn about blackpowder guns or how to shoot/load it.I understand how to load and shoot it,but I have always been kind of skittish about blackpowder guns.I don't know why?

Now that my sons have shown interest in guns and history,I finally got them to study our family tree and when they figured out that they had a Grandfather in the 1st Alabama Calvery killed in the Civil War at the battle of Shiloh.

I would like to ask if anyone can tell me where to find some info on this gun and explain to them that this was the type gun used at that time.

It has a stamp that looks like a ( PR ) then it has a stamped AB inside a square then it has a cartoush of some sort like a flower with a ?N below it. Then it has some kind of a crest shield something like mid-evil times.All the stamping is very light.

I know this not a expensive gun and they were numerous different repo manfactures from Spain and Italy back in the 1970's.Can anyone tell me what this gun is worth?

Should I shoot this gun or keep it the way it is and don't shoot it?It has a huge about of sentimental value to me.

It is 50 1/2 " long and the barell is 35" long

Just to let everone know again that I love this group and you people on it.I am of the same belief ya'll are I am old school to the core and want things to stay original.

Here is some pics.

I have a similar un-known black powder replica rifle but mine is rusted solid. It spent it's life in a damp barn and is likely ruined. Yours is not really a civil war replica per say, but it is a replica of a civilian type of rifle that would have been used to put food on the table. Yours is similar to a Kentucky style rifle, only with a fancy patch box on the butt like a Hawken rifle. Hawkens were shorter and did not have a full length stock like yours. You have done a wonderful job of keeping it clean and oiled. It is important to clean black powder guns immediately after shooting because of how corrosive it is. I don't know how valuable it is, but in sentimental value it's priceless. If you decide to shoot it, you'll need quite a few accessories, but you and your boys will have a great time.

$300-$400, the Italian replicas were somewhat higher quality , this was not a cheap rifle when it was new. Shooting it is not rocket science, first you need to determine caliber, this can be accomplished by using a muzzle gauge available from Dixie gun works or if you still have them, check the instructions that came with it. It might even be on the barrel someplace, never mind, I see you said it's a .45, this is the common " Kentucky rifle" caliber of the era. Next is powder, this is not a flintlock so you can use Pyrodex, or 777 if you can't find real black powder, your local gun shop probably has it and can help you select the appropriate type, for rifles I like to use FFG. The rule when you don't have loading data with the rifle is 45 grains of powder for a .45 ball, or fifty grains for a .50 and so on, I would start with a 35 grain charge, that should be sufficient for basic plinking until you have more experience. Caps, again, your local gun shop can help you here, they will be no10, or 11 caps for this size lock. Bullets, .45 round ball, the instructions should have information, but I would suspect it's the same .440 round ball my CVA's take, the ball size has to be slightly smaller than bore diameter as you are wrapping that pall with a cloth patch before stuffing it down, always stuff it down firmly on top of the powder NEVER leave an air gap between powder and ball. I like to use a patch called a " Wonder Wad" again, Dixie gun works, they come prelubed. Powder measure, powder horn, nipple wrench, cleaning rod with jog, and ball worm to pull a ball in case you forget the powder ( it happens) That's it. Never pour powder directly from the can into a bore, one tiny ember in there and your day is over. Always pour powder into a horn, or powder flask, them pour out from the flask into the measure, from there to the bore.
This is an easy rifle to learn BP on, you can buy How to books on the subject, or look up information on line, and I would suggest asking at the local gun shop if you have one nearby with knowledgeable people in it.
Cleaning BP can be messy, a five gallon plastic pail, hot water and dish soap with some patches for the rod are all that you will need , and some oil for when you are done. If you have specific questions about cleaning ask, don't guess, Black powder and Pyrodex fouling is highly corrosive and will ruin your rifle in no time flat if not removed properly. Dixie Gun Works has a variety of cleaning tools, and their catalog is full of useful information, send off for it.

I don't do BP YET, and my want list is huge enough without adding these to it, but I am constantly amazed at the wealth of knowledge on this forum.
I learn something each morning here.
Thanks JYD and all the other experts for sharing your expertise to this noob (me) and all the other folks here.

Unlike Milsurps BP is not an expensive disease to start with. You can get a Colt, or Remington revolver replica from Cabela's for around two hundred bucks. The tools are maybe fifty bucks more, and once you have them you use them for every BP gun you acquire. BP itself is fifteen bucks a pound from Graf ( Goex Powder) without shipping, but that adds a $20 haz mat fee per shipment of up to fifty pounds so I tend to buy in bulk. Your local gun shop will run you mid 20's for a pound of black, or substitute powder ( substitute powder is NOT smokeless cartridge powder) you can get hundreds of shots out of a pound of powder.
BP can get expensive, some BP rifles, handguns and muskets can run to the many thousands of dollars, but you don't have to start with them.

In additionto the tools JYD mentioned, I like to use a ball starter for my Kentucky pistol and TC Hawkin.

You probably will see those mentioned in black powder books.

I made mine from a wood ball I got in a craft shop, a wood dowel and two 30 carbine cases.

First you use the short starter then the longer and finally finish with the ram rod.

..

Also, I like to cast my own bullets with pure lead.

I have an old Lyman reloading book that has this picture in it and I like to think of that vision while I am casting the balls.

..

Nice starter!

Looks like a pretty nice one. Like the picture hombre! i have the dog part already as he is laying here at my feet.

I love how she is pouring the molten lead right next to the guys bare feet. I cast my own bullets for a dozen ML's and BP cartridge rifles, it's not difficult, I have an endless supply of lead, saves money, and the equipment need not be expensive to get started. I have a similar ball starter in my kit also.

Yes I use the ball starter too. I have noticed that it is common on new bp rifles from Thompson Center and likely the others too to find the barrel with a counter bore, as this makes it easier to start maxi bullets. I like the idea, but my Renegade is a older model and rifled all the way to the crown. The other tool that I find very helpful is a TC fiberglass range rod. It is a long out of production rod that is bright yellow with a round wood ball to make range work much easier than the ram rod. The new TC websight lists the new rod with a different knob and a black shaft, but not fiberglass I don't think.

Thanks so much for the replies--I am in agreement with you tinman507 I cannot believe the wealth of knowledge here and so free in sharing with everyone.


So basically their is really no good way of know where it was manfactured and the year of manfacture?

I want to learn to shoot blackpowder,but I am not sure I want to learn on this gun since it has never been shot .

Thanks again and I will see what I can drag out and ask ya'll some more random questions ,I think it is time to get out some of the small bore stuff .22 Cal.

Tennessee_Mosin wrote:.......So basically their is really no good way of know where it was manfactured and the year of manfacture?

I want to learn to shoot blackpowder,but I am not sure I want to learn on this gun since it has never been shot ..

There is no way to the exact year unless there is a date stamped somewhere on it. Did you look under the wood? I doubt there would be but worth a look.

I would go ahead and shoot it. Would it really have less sentimental value to you if you did. And if I were the one who inherited it from my dad I would be proud to hold it up and say "this is the black powder rifle he enjoyed shooting so much". So I don't think it would ruin the sentimental value to whoever you pass it on to.

Plus I think your dad, who gave it to you would be happy that you used it.

Yes, someplace I had a list of the various proofs and stamps used by the Italian manufacturers, but I can't find it. Armi san Marco maybe, or Pedersoli.

Junk Yard Dog wrote:Yes, someplace I had a list of the various proofs and stamps used by the Italian manufacturers, but I can't find it. Armi san Marco maybe, or Pedersoli.

Same here. With that thought I googled it and from this AB in the rectangle indicates the rifle was made in 1976.
That takes care of the date but I have not found the manufacturers mark yet.

..

Thanks so much Hombre--JYD and everyone's else suggestions

It means a lot that you all spend your time researching this gun.

The year was the main thing I was interested in.

I believe I will get the supplies and give this gun a shot,it will be a learning experience for all of us.

I used to have all the powder balls etc but sometime from 1990-1994 when I got married and moved a couple of times everything but the black powder in a can got lost in the shuffle.

Bobby

Black powder lasts forever if kept dry, and can be hard to find, hold on to it.