Why corrosive ammo?

[Wolf74]

This may be a dumb question but I have to ask. If the primers on surplus ammo are corrosive, then why would the Soviet government issue it for their military? Wouldn't this mean that the every time a conscript fired his weapon he'd have to break it down and clean it within hours of using it? This would seem pretty inefficient wouldn't it? If someone got into a firefight the lasted more than a day, then by day 2 wouldn't his firing pin be corroded beyond use? Someone enlighten me please.

[millman]

Corrosive primer ammo lasts a lot longer in storage than non-corrosive ammo. As to what the individual soldier had to do to maintain his weapon, the central planners gave no shit. BTW in 1 or 2 days the weapon is not gonna be rusted beyond use. Corrosive ammo is bad, but it is not sulfuric acid.

[Junk Yard Dog]

The French used non corrosive primers, their ammo was good for 50 years or so, and that's why I have 980 rounds of dead 40's dated 8mm Lebel stored away. Corrosive primers have a very long life span, I once shot some 1907 dated 30/40 Krag that had gotten mixed in with the new ammo, they fired so well that I never noticed until I policed up the brass.

[mrb7]

I think our classification of "corrosive" and "non-corrosive" probably wouldn't have made much sense to the military planners. Their classifications would have been something more like "stable for years" or "stable for decades (centuries)" when specifying the primers. It just so happens that the "stable for decades" choice has the downside of being corrosive.

But as millman pointed out, the soldiers could be directed to keep the weapon clean, battle conditions permitting, and the shelf life was a worthwhile trade off in the specifications.

[Junk Yard Dog]

It's a good thing they did plan on using ammunition made today to fight a war eighty years on. Kind of odd when you think on it, didn't they think that in 20 or 30 years they would come up with better weapons than they had at the time, all they had to do was look back on what the previous generation had used, and compare it to theirs. Millions upon millions of rounds churned out by commie factories over the years, all stockpiled and now being used by us for plinking. The only reason the M1 Garand wasn't chambered for the .270 was the huge stockpiles of .30-06 left over from the Great War that General MacArthur didn't want to see go to waste in the 1930's. That stockpile was probably gone during the first 15 minutes of WWII

[Hombre]

....... The only reason the M1 Garand wasn't chambered for the .270 was the huge stockpiles of .30-06 left over from the Great War that General MacArthur didn't want to see go to waste in the 1930's. That stockpile was probably gone during the first 15 minutes of WWII

In spite of that the US military continued to use corrosive primers in .30-06 and 45ACP ammo until the mid 50s.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Oh I know , I have 500 rounds of 1942 black tip on the '03 clips and in the bandoleers stashed away, several boxes of WW2 date .45acp, and hundreds of odd rounds from WW2, Korea, and the early50's that are all corrosively primed. Only the M1 Carbine escaped corrosive primers, at least in the US, some other users might have gone corrosive. I am forever picking up odd full Garand clips, mostly with WW2 date ammo in them, these I stash away in the collection, they were probably brought home by GI's after the war who wanted to show family members what they shot the Germans/Japs with and then tossed in a box for 60 years. The Koreans also made some corrosive M2 ball, not the PS headstamp stuff in the 20 round boxes, that stuff is great, but the KA stamp crap that was marketed a few years back on the Garand clips, that stuff is corrosive.

[Hombre]

...... I am forever picking up odd full Garand clips, mostly with WW2 date ammo in them, these I stash away in the collection, they were probably brought home by GI's after the war who wanted to show family members what they shot the Germans/Japs with and then tossed in a box for 60 years.......

One of my brothers was on a Navy rifle competition team in the early '60s and he brought me a couple of ammo cans full of WW2 ammo in Garand clips. He said they had orders to shoot it up in order to get rid of it. I shot it up and then reloaded the cases.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Nice, I am up to three .50 cans and one .30 full of loaded Garand clips. I can't get the clips as cheap as I used to anymore. At one time Numrich was selling them by the 55 gallon drum, USGI clips too, not cheap repops. I just picked up another 30 new GI clips, need to break out some ammo and load them up, when they are loaded I can keep track of them better.

[tjtM38]

It should be noted that the cleaning kit the Soviets issued was adequate to negate the effects of the corrosive priming if the soldier properly maintained the weapon. The Soviet manual (translated) directed the soldiers to clean the weapon immediately after firing or every seven days when not fired. The metal accessory bottle contained an alkaline solution for cleaning "gunpowder residue" and the appropriate weight oil for the battle conditions in which issued (winter or summer) for rust prevention.

Interestingly enought, FM 23-5, the field manual for the M1 Garand recommends essentially the same thing. It says, "The bores of all rifles must be thoroughly cleaned by the evening of the day on which they are fired." This implies that our own WWII soldiers were faced with the same problem of dealing with potential adverse effects of corrosive priming. When using the solvents and procedures of issue (or in garrison) they were able to easily deal with this potential corrosion problem. I think problems occurred in combat when the soldiers of east or west were faced with hazardous environment of combat conditions and under fire constantly. Then they faced the real probability of dealing with the effects of the mildly corrosive priming and moisture from winter or tropical weather (or salt water in the Pacific) that would cause rust in the rifle bore or action parts.

Luckily, we don't have to deal with these condiditons and are able to clean in the controlled environment of the rifle range or immediately after we return home in our shops or homes. This is the first time in over 30 years of shooting that I have ever dealt with corrosive-primed ammo regular use. I have found it to be really no big deal if I do what I am supposed to do and am not guilty of neglect after use. You can fire five sighting rounds through your .270 Winchester, use it all season (if it doesn't get exposed to rain) and clean it in the spring. If you do that with a Mosin Nagant after shooting surplus ammo, you will end up with a rust bucket in the spring. My daugter had a M24 Mauser (one of Yugo rebuilds) and shot corrosive-primed 8 x 57JS in it without bothering to clean it. When she brought to my house several months later, it took me a full day of work to get as much of the corrosion out as I could; the barrel was never the same.

[Hombre]

JYD, I threw away the clips. As you said, USGI empty clips were plentiful back then. But Garands were not so I had no use for the clips. (I have always favored bolt action rifles anyway.)

[SDH1903]

I have shot 10' if thousands maybe more of corrosive ammo without a problem, Clean your weapon good and daily, no problem!-Steve

[Junk Yard Dog]

The US Army has always been good about keeping weapons clean, I have US Springfield's from the black powder era with spotless bores, The British did OK also, both my Martini, and Snider have bores you could see your reflection in, and my Swiss Vetterlis, French Gras, and so on all the same thing. That's black powder fouling mind you, not the piddly little bit of salt a corrosive primer adds, but industrial strength fouling.
Tossed Garand clips? US GI clips?

[Wolf74]

Wow, this thread really picked up more than I expected. Thanks for the info. I'm glad to see it sparked quite a discussion.

[mrb7]

... Kind of odd when you think on it, didn't they think that in 20 or 30 years they would come up with better weapons than they had at the time, all they had to do was look back on what the previous generation had used, and compare it to theirs. ...

The mindset changes slowly. One thing I have observed, and commented on often is that 200 years ago a person, for the most part, died in about the same world they were born into. If you were born in 1812 you road a horse all your life probably. 300 years ago almost certainly.

Today the world changes every 14 minutes it seems. An observation that I made after my grandfather died, after he started life plowing with a mule and ended life owning trucks and cars and tractors plus watching men walk on the moon, is that he failed to grasp the magnitude of the changes that occurred around him. He particularly failed to grasp the magnitude of the changes that occurred in the last 20 years of his life.

The guys making the decision to manufacture hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition and pack it away in the '40s were probably a group of guys in their late 50s. And they were probably preparing for a scenario of war with the west by 1965 or 1970. Certainly I don't think anyone in their right mind in the FSU actively *WANTED* all out war with the west. But you have to admit things were more than a little tight there for a few decades. Any number of things could have triggered things.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Oh yes, the history channel , or is it the military one, keeps running the documentary about the 1983 war scare. When the USSR almost went to war with the west because they interpreted a war game as the real thing. Again, and again during the Cold War the world almost ended because of something stupid, and didn't by chance, or the intervention of one or two people who had brains. With the communists there was also a certain inertia that developed in their projects. Yes, they were making obsolete ammunition, but under that system employment was guaranteed, and state factories ground on endlessly to ensure this. Look at the entire Mosin refurb program, endlessly churning out archaic rifles in the era of the full auto AK, a program that should have ended when Stalin died but kept on going for decades past that. These programs ground to a stop when the higher ups who controlled them died off, or the workers died at their posts. I have a mental image of a huge tomb like 19th century style factory, tables covered in Mosins that are in various stages of refurbishment, skeletons slumped over them, and on the machines, tools scattered about, the refurb program ended at least.

[Hombre]

…. But you have to admit things were more than a little tight there for a few decades. Any number of things could have triggered things…

I saw some of that tightness in 1957/58 when I was in Germany as a crew chief in a fighter bomber squadron. We had planes loaded with nuclear bombs and there were several times we went to the stage where the pilot was in the cockpit with his hand on the throttle ready to push it to the engine start position and the crew chief had the engine starter turbine running. These were not drills.

Mostly we did not know exactly what was causing the alerts but I recall there was great concern when Russia launched Sputnik in late 1957.

An observation that I made after my grandfather died, after he started life plowing with a mule and ended life owning trucks and cars and tractors plus watching men walk on the moon, is that he failed to grasp the magnitude of the changes that occurred around him. He particularly failed to grasp the magnitude of the changes that occurred in the last 20 years of his life.

I also “started out life plowing behind a mule” (actually a draft horse) but maybe kept up a bit more than your grandfather did. I wound up with a Master of Science degree in Mechanical Engineering and designed equipment for Nuclear Power plants . I started using computers in the early ‘60s and have used/worked on pretty much every type of personal computer starting with the IBM PC in the early ‘80s. I started working with GPS systems using Trimble equipment back in the early 90s. But I have to admit there has become such a plethora of electronic toys that I have given up on trying to keep up with all of them.

[tjtM38]

I was deployed to Guam flying WC-130 aircraft in August 1983 when the Korean airliner got shot down. That caused a basewide alert with a whole bunch of activity for a couple of days with the B-52's getting priority for parking and positioning of aircraft. We forward deployed to the Phillipines to fly a storm and to get out of their way. There was a lot of speculation on my crew about whether we were going to war. Things eventually calmed down in a week or so and then heated back up later that year. When the real war scare came (November, I think?) I was back home in the states.

[finloq]

Oh I know , I have 500 rounds of 1942 black tip on the '03 clips and in the bandoleers stashed away, several boxes of WW2 date .45acp, and hundreds of odd rounds from WW2, Korea, and the early50's that are all corrosively primed. Only the M1 Carbine escaped corrosive primers, at least in the US, some other users might have gone corrosive. I am forever picking up odd full Garand clips, mostly with WW2 date ammo in them, these I stash away in the collection, they were probably brought home by GI's after the war who wanted to show family members what they shot the Germans/Japs with and then tossed in a box for 60 years. The Koreans also made some corrosive M2 ball, not the PS headstamp stuff in the 20 round boxes, that stuff is great, but the KA stamp crap that was marketed a few years back on the Garand clips, that stuff is corrosive.

Bossman, I have heard you reference different type and caliber ammunition that you have been hoarding for years...I have seen your Youtube videos on many fine weapons...mix your chocolate and your peanut butter. I would love to see a video of some of your more rare ammunition.

[ISPKI]

You must also take into account how many other firearms used this ammunition. While the Mosin nagant was replaced by newer weapons, what about machine guns such as the PKM? That started production in the early 1960s. Heavy use and abuse of those guns would cause the barrels to wear out relatively quickly, thus the corrosive primer may never take effect. They also developed the dragunov that still uses the same round. In their eyes, if they ever lost the ability to manufacture ammunition, perhaps if gunpowder or copper or lead or brass supplies dwindled or disappeared, the russian military would still have stockpiles of hundreds of millions (if not billions) of functional ammunition for their military.