My '44 Izhevsk PU and targets

[Mantis]

Tech challenged, yep just figured out how to post pictures, I hate following links.
This is my RGUNS 44 Izhevsk PU. It's a scrubbed, turned not a thing on it to prove it's a PU but the S# and the R guns stamp on the top. It's a sub 2moa rifle, I'll have to post pictures of both it's barrel and the TULA EX . There is no rhyme or reason why they were decommissioned, none. The TULA is almost perfect A work order said "Ivan make this many.Today you make PUs EXs. " The grade of work varies, this rifle by looks is a mutt. I have no delusions about Mosin anything. Maybe that's Mosin Shrouded in mystery wrapped in an enigma ...flooded in vodka Probably force matched but the fonts are right, scope number long gone. The trigger ha ha the pin falls out of it and the pull is from here to Tucson. Breaks eventual. "Snipers have this and that ...." no they don't here's proof. It's who ever did the work, some are good some are, well not. There are not many left and the exes I have encountered are worn out. Rguns is out, I bought one of the last 3 weeks ago. J&G have them dark pitted bores. I see them on auction sites, 150.
I'll post my Tula ex (rgun exes have a very small import stamp on the left side of the recv'r) and then I will take and post side by side pictures this week. You will never again have delusions about what was done to or not done to Mosin snipers or ex snipers. I bought them on the same day from Rguns, I have the tag from the ex to prove it. You will see by the side to side pictures and you will question why that Tula was de commissioned and wander why the Izhevsk went on as a PU. No rhyme no reason. I am going to do some Russian sniper up grades, folded oil wax paper to bed the barrel into the stock, well make sure it touches the wood. The trigger man, I don't know at the least it's getting the pinned booger ed so it will stay in, ooopps??? It's not original if it's peened?? How about if it has a nail in it because the pin rolled under the couch. I'll peen the pin and take my chances with the taunts, but I will have the pin. There are some instructions in the Russian sniper manual on how to work on them. "Take rock grind on trigger. peen pin with nail, kill many Germans."

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[desdem12]

[Mantis]

I DLd a bunch of pictures and then didn't hit some button.

[Darryl]

Read about refurbishment on the M91/30's (including ex-snipers....they were treated the same as M91/30. Sniper rifles were treated (refurbed) differently.
information/refurbishment/index.html

What do you mean by "scrubbed" when you talk about your RGUNS sniper rifle.

Is it one of the $800 PU snipers? If not, it's not a sniper rifle.

The only thing that is "sniper" on an ex sniper rifle is the barrel and receiver. Everything else was replaced when it was refurbished. Replaced with regular M91/30 parts. The chance of getting the sniper trigger on one is very slim. It probably went on a different standard M91/30.

Fonts never match on any refurbished Mosin except on some snipers (not ex-sniper). Most parts on a ex-sniper are done exactly like any refurbished M91/30. They were totally stripped down and refinished and the rifles were re- assembled from mixed parts and re-marked (force marked with stamps or electro pencil) to make the rifle all matching ...again. We have very good evidence that most sniper rifles were not refurbished in the same manner as the M91/30's. Except the bolts.

The big question is, why did they decommission sniper rifles. The answer is, no one knows and it is all speculation, but it seems fair that some of them were "shot out" and decommissioned. Some may have been decommissioned simply because they had too many of them after the war and decided to return them to standard duty during the refurb process. But it is clear that they refurbished them the same as any other M91/30 by taking them apart (every nut bolt and screw) and removing the serial numbers and refinishing them. The rifles were then reassembled from parts into standard M91/30's. This is evident as many ex-sniper rifles don't have their original triggers or sear springs. Some even having other arsenal marks on them. So basically they are just another M91/30 except for the barrel and receiver. If you are lucky, you may get one that has an exceptional bore and shoots very good.

"I am going to do some Russian sniper up grades, folded oil wax paper to bed the barrel into the stock, well make sure it touches the wood."
Russian sniper upgrades? That is not a Russian sniper upgrade, that is a upgrade done after the war. The Russians never did that.

"The trigger man, I don't know at the least it's getting the pinned booger ed so it will stay in, ooopps??? It's not original if it's peened?? How about if it has a nail in it because the pin rolled under the couch. I'll peen the pin and take my chances with the taunts, but I will have the pin."
Just be aware that if you alter the rifle in any way (permanently), please don't post photos of it here. Read the rules.

No matter what the manuals say about altering a rifle, they were intended for the arsenals or armorers, which you are not. Altering the rifle now will destroy the value and history of the rifle. We really don't want them posted here on the "preservation forums" (read the rules). There are other forums that love to see people destroy a collectable rifle because misery love company,....... but not here.

As always.....It's your rifle to do as you like with it...that's your right.
But if it is altered it is not welcomed here nor is discussion on how to permanently alter a rifle allowed on these forums, that is our right here.


Dolk
Founder/ Administrator

[Mantis]

I am talking about 2 rifles My TULA EX. '44 Izhevsk PU. As far as the Russian sniper 'upgrades' I found them in the FM for Russian snipers and there was trigger work in there mostly filing fitting, the wax paper, I admit I may have gotten it from a Mosin guy on a board or in the shop. Coke cans work really well. I will look for the publication year after I get it back from my friend. If it's after 45 I apologize.
I humbly disagree about de commissioning. My Tula, the stock is junk, maybe that's why. It's by no means shot out, I can never get a pic of the rifling Ive seen NICE rifles that are de commisioned. Is it perfect? NO. Is it sniper grade? Maybe not. I can find no hard fast rules on de commissioning. And it still holds a bit over 2 moa with iron sites @100 yards. 600 I know not. That's it on that.
Someone was talking about trigger pull on Mosins and they had used good 91/30 triggers. I am not arguing that . I am saying look at the machining on the TULA, that's it.
Trigger pins I have several. I am not talking about altering anything on the rifle, the pin, nicking it so it will not fall out, come on What I said is "It's better than loosing it in the couch and replacing it with a nail" IT happens, go to a pawn shop and see the crap they have sometimes. If it is savable I GET THEM also the peening with a nail that's a joke (go into FOGHORN LEG HORN THING). No one would see it and it can be replaced. Not a big thing if parts are replaced, this is a shooter. They will be saved and can be put back. I hate the trigger on MY PU, I want to shoot it and more so be consistent and hit something with it. If it was a cabinet queen it would stay crappy. Pin falls out mile of creep, it's not a good sniper rifle. It was hurried through re furb and unless it is locked tight the trigger pull is a BIG problem. I will get better pictures, I think the whole damn recv'r was turned and re numbered. The bolt has been lapped in so many times it is black on one side. The mag floor plate has a struck number on it and the new one, in the same font, stamped on it during the refurb.
The EX PU all the fonts do match except the bolt which I have shown , S#22 and I think original to the rifle. Stock color makes a difference, I think, of where or when they were re furbed, maybe that's the difference. The recv'r has not been turned, at least to the degree of the Izhevsk.
I disagree that they are 91/30 triggers or were all converted back. Have you ever worked in a factory? Crap happens all the time. New guys orders changed.etc
I also think the TULA has a cut down sniper bolt (Izhevsk though) (posted), 3 pieces, it is the same length as my M39 FIN and a Fin Dragoon. Same type of ball. I put them side by side no one can tell them apart.

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this is the way I got the rifle from R guns. Notice the Izhevsk and the inspector stamps on it. This is a 91/30 line rifle trigger? If so I have never seen one like it. I have seen almost the same one sans bluing on my FIN M39s.
PU pin falls out trigger wobbles moves from here to there break eventually. The ex TULA pin has one end peened the other melted there is a small spring that was broke laying in the cosmoline. The recv'r pin hole has been welded, the sides have been milled the hole drilled and as tight as it is maybe reamed. (I was a machinist I Know what this stuff looks like.) The release has been surfaced ground so it is even, the Izhevsk PU is off set to one side, looks like a production ( I did that too sweaty crappy job)piece.
I by no means am arguing with someone with as much knowledge as you. I respect every thing you have told me. I just have to disagree on somethings since I am holding what I consider proof another Mosin is a Mystery. A nice '43 TULA ex a sweet trigger tons of work on it and a nice '44 Izhevsk PU, NO trigger work on it. ZIP 0 nadda. Hands down the Tula ex has a better trigger, better smoother machining.
I will post a set of pictures of both rifles in full and in pieces and try to get a picture of the bore. Maybe the TULA grooves are rounded. This still don't explain the triggers; why such a crappy job was done on my $800.oo PU and a bunch of work on my $99.00 ex. And it really don't explain why I saw drilled, tapped snipers come out of a crate with no scope in sight (pun intended). Packed wrong? Don't know. Marked wrong? Don't know. Combloc Mosin mystery? Probably

[Darryl]

I humbly disagree about de commissioning. My Tula, the stock is junk, maybe that's why. It's by no means shot out, I can never get a pic of the rifling Ive seen NICE rifles that are de commisioned. Is it perfect? NO. Is it sniper grade? Maybe not. I can find no hard fast rules on de commissioning. And it still holds a bit over 2 moa with iron sites @100 yards. 600 I know not.

Re-read my comments. No one knows why they were decommissioned...no one.
One possible reason is the accuracy dropped on some of them and those were removed.
The second part of my comments was "Some may have been decommissioned simply because they had too many of them after the war and decided to return them to standard duty during the refurb process."
Those two reasons seem reasonable and would account for why some shoot good and others don't.

The mag floor plate has a struck number on it and the new one, in the same font, stamped on it during the refurb.
The EX PU all the fonts do match except the bolt which I have shown , S#22 and I think original to the rifle.

When the standard and ex_snipers were refurbed, all the serial numbers were removed except the barrel shank serial numbers. Those are original to the barrel when it was made.

None of the fonts on the bolt, mag, butt plate are the same on a "refurb" as as the barrel shank. When they put the serial numbers back on the parts to match the barrel shank, they used different stamps. The fonts don't match the original barrel shank serial numbers. This is called "force matching" sometimes they even used electropencil to match the parts back up. Sometimes they didn't even bother to use the letter suffix and only stamped in the numbers.

Fonts can't match unless the part is from the same rifle as when it was made during the war. That is rare to find. The "sniper rifles" that RGUNS sell have matching fonts on the mag and butt plate to the barrel..... except for the bolt. That is standard. So if your mag was "lined out" and replaced during "refurb", the fonts will not match. You have to know what you are looking at to see the font differences. Most people can't.

I disagree that they are 91/30 triggers or were all converted back. Have you ever worked in a factory? Crap happens all the time. New guys orders changed.etc

If it is an ex-sniper and not a "true sniper", then the rifles were processed the same as the standard M91/30's during the refurb process. Every nut bolt and screw was removed and every part was refinished. Each type of part was put in a pile (all the trigger were in one pile, all the sears were in a nother pile, all the barrel bands were in another pile and so on) The rifle were re assembled from these piles. That is why refurbed M91/30's (and that includes ex-sniper) have mixed parts. None of the parts on them came from the same rifle . And that includes triggers and sears.

Now the "true snipers" that were left in PU sniper configuration weres refurbished differently. They marked all the part including the mounts and stocks and sometime even the top forestock. They tried to keep all the original parts together so the didn't have to "refit" all the parts and it would have less "tuning" to do. If you have been around PU snipers and people who know, they will tell you that.

I just have to disagree on somethings since I am holding what I consider proof another Mosin is a Mystery. A nice '43 TULA ex a sweet trigger tons of work on it and a nice '44 Izhevsk PU, NO trigger work on it. ZIP 0 nadda. Hands down the Tula ex has a better trigger, better smoother machining.

Means nothing. Just you got a old sniper rifle (original and that is cool) and an ex-sniper that was luck enough to get a nice trigger setup. Nothing more. It is the luck of the draw on military surplus rifles. These rifles are not intended to be "modern sniper rifles", they are collectables. Trying to force a collectable to do more than it was ever intended to do (like wax paper under the barrel and filing off the trigger or sear) in my opinion is rediculas. If you want to fire the rifle, fire it, but altering it (and yes, filing parts and peening parts is altering a rifle)is a destruction of the collectable military surplus rifle, plain and simple. Oh, and if you take "spare parts" and alter them, you are doing the same thing. Where do you think they are getting those spare parts? They break down good rifles to get them (called parting out a rifle for it parts).


Dolk

[Mantis]

First, I am not being confrontational, I totally understand what you are saying. In my first post on it I put a question mark, I am asking. Not telling. As far as the oil wax paper, the kind that everything came in that had to be protected, I don't know. . There is a section for modification the Soviet Sniper manual, like I said I may have heard it. I don't hang around Bozo's and it's nothing that cannot be changed. My barrels are floated in my 91/30s. (can be done with no modification).
See, I think everyone is thinking that I am saying this is rare this is that. No. I am asking:" What is with this? why is it this way? who did it?" My answer. A Mosin Mystery.
I think it is an old Mosin. Telling me it was an ex sniper that has a good trigger set up means nothing. It came form a com bloc country in a com bloc crate. Why wasn't it 'fixed' (like the Izhevsk PU that's irony) during re arsenal. Why is the 'real' PU have a crappy trigger? I thought about this and since I had the PU down I put a roll pin in it Splayed the end. Done no more wobble and the arsenal pin is safe. Not a thing really changed except the trigger don't move left right up down. Every way but correct.
Let's say there is absolutely no way to distinguish the 2 rifles apart, holes plugged hidden whatever. The hammer cocked you squeeze the trigger of A then B. B just totally kicks the crap out of As trigger. No comparison, none. You uncover and find that b is the EX sniper of= what ever make. You see A is a ready to use sniper rifle.
Wouldn't you question the wisdom of putting a rifle on line if it is junk and taking a rifle that, at the least, the trigger is correct moving it to a grunt? This has been my question, although maybe not worded right the whole time....WHY?
I look at this like a shooter. My Mosins 1923 on up to my m44 are shot. If I got that Izhevsk issued to me, me and that armorer would be talkin, and he would not like what I have to say.
Can we agree that these rifles weren't re furbed to look at? They were re furbed for use in an up coming war. NVA used them although they have been M52s I don't know. That's how I am looking at it. Maybe it's just a totally different perspective. That PU was to be given to a sniper, he/she had to depend on it to work consistently every time. See where I am going? If I am a sniper and I just got issued JUNK. These as**hole** want me to risk a shot with this?" I understand it's a collector. I also understand it was not re arsenal ed to be one. I'll take a trigger over a barrel within reason.

[Darryl]

Rifle doesn't make a sniper. It's the man and his training that makes a good sniper. Look at the Finns, most of them didn't use a scope, but they were deadly sniper.

Your two examples (one sniper and one with a sniper receiver and barrel only (ex-sniper") are not enough to prove anything.

99% of the snipers sold by RGUNS have excellent triggers. You may have got a bad one or maybe before they turned in the rifle to the arsenals, a field armor replaced a bad trigger and did a poor job. Who knows, but most of the RGUNS snipers have good trigger pull for a Russian rifle.

Most "Ex-snipers" have standard M91/30 trigger pull. Sometimes good, sometimes poor, sometimes OK. It's a crap shoot.

M91/30's (standard infantry rifles) sometimes have great triggers and sometimes they have OK triggers and sometimes they have crap triggers. They did not take a lot of time to make a great trigger pull for the Russian Army.

And if you were to complain to the armorer about your rifle and it's poor trigger pull, you would have been transferred to the Russian front where your life expectancy was pretty poor at times.


Dolk

[Mantis]

I do enjoy a spirited conversation. with someone that knows their poopy. I would say anything too my armorer, I trusted him with my life several times. If I were doing that job I would have every in I could and 3 friggin ways out. Most dangerous job OIL RIG WORKER. I think not.
Uh... Another Mosin Mystery then
It figures that I would get a crap trigger on the 800 dollar gun. I am going to ask Eric about it, maybe he can help me.
I fully agree a rifle don't make a sniper, but it can sure limit one. It seems that's one of the first things that is adjusted. Would you agree that the trigger pull is the hardest thing to be consistent with. When you have a half ass trigger, it makes it that much harder. A barrel, if you use the same ammo and you know the rifle (Hathcock that 70 was beat) you can still be pretty darn good. The trigger, that's different. This is my opinion gentlemen. The more it moves, especially on y axis, the harder it is to find the break or it feels mushy. "Break break damn it moved!" I am not expecting custom shop quality, but this wasn't the stone age. These jokers and jokerettes were pretty good and I would expect their equipment to be as good as it gets. You don't get 500 kills with junk.
That TULA trigger is like 1940 50 state of the art. If it didn't have bluing one it it cold easily be mistaken for a FIN M39. The handle, dead ringer for the 39. I think there is something to that. I do not know and I am probably FOS, but outta wood side by side, it's hard to see the difference.
Mr Dolk
At some point I have to say I don't know and have no valid rebuttal to your statements, I have to defer to your knowledge on the subject. I'll agree with you but my question will stand: Has anyone seen this trigger on a RUSSIAN MOSIN of any kind. 91s, 91/30, PU. EX M44 M38 friggin MOSIN slingshot???whatever? Are your Fins sans blue and have stamps?

[Darryl]

That TULA trigger is like 1940 50 state of the art. If it didn't have bluing one it it cold easily be mistaken for a FIN M39. The handle, dead ringer for the 39. I think there is something to that.

The reason they looks so much alike is, the Finn M39 triggers used to be Russian triggers before the Finns re-worked them and made them better and put them on the M39's.

The Finns took the triggers they had on their receivers (originally made by the Russians) and re-worked them making them into Finn triggers.

That is why they looks so much alike.

Look closely at those two pin that go through the trigger at the top of the Finn M39 trigger.

Those two pins make all the difference in those two triggers.

The M39's may look like a Russian trigger, but they are nothing alike as far as pull goes.


Bluing came later, and is more common on Russian triggers as they blued everything. Old Russian triggers and Finn triggers are mostly "in the white", but not always.


Dolk

[Mantis]

I was talking about the cartouches, I've never seen them before. I know the triggers are made in Russia, but the only time I have seen the stamp is on the M39. I decided to order a couple ATI snipers and I'll take a look at those triggers. I was a Rguns customer, no more. YOU can get German Polize PU,(these rifles look MINT) guys I mean friggin original butt plates all the same manufacturer through out PU for 50 less, and I have seen them and they are REAL as they get... YIPPEE. I