The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

Hey all!
Hoping to get some help. I purchased this Springfield Trapdoor and am hoping to learn some more about it. It appears to be an 1866 2nd conversion, but may also have been modified. The barrel length (plus chamber) is only 28-1/4”. Any help in Id-ing this odd bird?

That is the US Model 1866 second Allin conversion. Like the name suggests these started off life as a rifle musket from the 1861-65 States war, the Model 1863, and 64 I believe. They were later converted to breech loader chambering the 50/70 cartridge using the Allin system. They did see some action during the Indian war early on, but were quickly replaced in service by later versions. I don't think they were made as carbines to start with, but later on some did become cadet rifles, and others were shortened into carbines either by Uncle, or Bannerman. Yours doesn't looks like a crap Bubba job, so I am thinking that was professionally done. I do not have information on these conversions. They didn't make many 66's, a big chunk of them ended up being sold as surplus in 1870 to France for their was with Prussia. They tend to have a high dollar price tag when they show up. Your going to have to do some homework on that one, don't assume someone did a hack job. Bannerman conversions are collectable in their own right, and any 1866 is a sought after item shortened or not. That surface rust will clean up with oil and a copper brush, these rifles were in the white when issued. These also used a sleeved bore that would present some challenges to amateur barrel hackers Take a close look at the barrel crown and see how they recrowned it after shortening. Great find, looks like it is good enough to fire once you clean it up, and manufacture some black powder rounds.

Here is a pic of the crown. It looks a little irregular to me. Also, I was informed it does not match any known “shortenings” and was cut down by “parties unknown.” Does the crown quality indicate a bubba job?

I do not see the line between liner and barrel so it's been sealed over by whoever shortened it. It doesn't look like the typical home job, and being 50/70 these would not be in big demand for carbine projects as the 45/70 was. 45/70 was, and is easier to get. Uncle didn't get involved in shortening these, and that would be the best, and most reliable information to have. Foreign powers, or numerous commercial enterprises working for them did shorten these and that information will never be complete. They attached a bead sight, looks like an OK job at a new crown, they didn't eliminate the front band or the forend cap as Bubba commonly did. This could have even been done for a Hollywood studio, or someone supplying them as trapdoors were a popular stand-in for real rifle muskets in films up into the 1980's No saddle ring was added so I am guessing this was for dismounted troops, or artillery. It's not in my hands to tell for sure, but this looks like a fireable weapon once cleaned up. Sometimes the story will never be known, or will take decades to ferret out, but at least someone didn't do a hatchet job on it.

As you can tell, Jim is the resident expert on Trapdoors.

I have a carbine and make my own ammo for it.

Darryl

The Argentine isn't a 50/70, it's .43 Spanish if memory serves, still you have to pack your own ammo. Fairly similar to our 45/70.

This is super helpful! Thanks! Apparently it's a little bit of a franken-gun, with barrel bands from an earlier model, lock plate and barrel from an 1866, and wood from an 1870ish model! And cut down. That's a story I'd love to hear. I wonder if some of this sort of stuff was done c. 1870s-1880s? I read one article about cutting these down to make better buffalo rifles, so maybe this is a pioneer job? Or maybe a surplus cobble-together?