The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

Hello, I'm Rick Baran.

I'm a retired sailor and a collector of guns 'everyone else has given up on'. One in particular is proving very difficult to identify. I am writing to ask if you'd be willing to help me.
A few years ago I wandered into a local Pawn store and dropped $75 on what was believed to be a Mosin Nagant M91/30. The original stock was gone, replaced by a sporter stock. The barrel had no indication that a front sight had ever been installed, but it may have been shortened. There was no evidence of a rear sight, and the receiver had been tapped on top for a cheap scope. The entire weapon was black, and I was told it would not chamber a round, although the bolt would close on an empty chamber.
That barrel measures 20 3/32" from the crown to the receiver. When I disassembled the rifle I discovered a few things. First, under the paint was a very nice partially finished wood stock. Second, the barrel is rotated 180 degrees out; I believe this because the rear-sight mounting pins and unfinished area under the location of a rear sight are 'on the bottom' of the barrel and only visible when the furniture is removed.
I've been doing research here and on http://www.7.62x54r.net. Based on markings, I think that I have an Izhevsk-Arsenal receiver made in 1943. The barrel also appears to be a 1943 Izhevsk, although there is a possible second Serial Number on the underside of the barrel that starts with the Cyrillic "Zh" +"f". The reference material on 7.62x54.net states this would indicate a Tula-Arsenal barrel, which conflicts with a prominent Izhevsk mark(arrow in triangle) on the upper part of the barrel where it meets the receiver.
The bolt has been modified, but it's(at least the safety) clearly a Tula bolt. The magazine floorplate is a "force mark", with the old SN lined out and a S/N matching the barrel and magazine floorplate stamped in.
In addition, there are literally two dozen or more other markings on the barrel, and others on the receiver. Most prominently on the receiver is what appears to be a date(1953) with an unknown character between the "5" an "3". This marking is at top of the receiver where the barrel screws in.
Lastly, an importer's mark "ATI Roch. NY 002920" is electro-pencilled onto the left side of the receiver at the wood-line. This importers mark also has a diamond with what looks like a "T" with a smaller crossbar halfway down from the top crossbar.

I apologize for the length, but you can see that there is really very little to actually identify what this started life as. It is not possible to restore it to 'military' condition, but I'd like to make it a shooter. I think that if I rotate the barrel to it's correct orientation(relative to the receiver) I might be able to get it to cycle and to at least see if it'll headspace.
Although this doesn't really make this a weapon of interest to you and to other Mosin collectors, I'm hoping you'll be willing to help me identify it. If so, let me know and I'll provide photographs of the metal parts, markings, and any other details you'd like.

This image is the receiver. Remember, there was no original stock.


This image is the top of the receiver and what I believe is the bottom of the barrel, with the 'second' S/N.


This image what I believe is the top of the barrel.


This image is through the receiver to the chamber, then the barrel.


This image is of the bolt. Note the handle has been cut off and reattached 90-degrees to it's original orientation.


This last image is what I'd like the rifle to look like complete. I see no sense in trying to fit a front sight; I intend to get a rear-sight base, have it machined to a P-Rail, and mount that small reflex-sight. The muzzle brake is...well...just for fun.


That muzzle brake brings another point to mind. I believe the barrel has been shortened because that brake won't fit right now. It was made for the M91/30, and the barrel is too wide for it to fit. If I look carefully it appears the barrel narrows very slightly from the chamber to the muzzle. If that is so, and if the barrel was shortened, than a part properly machined to fit over the muzzle would be too small.
Lastly, if you have associates and/or friends who might be able/willing to help would you please forward this email to them?

Thank you for your time.

Rick Baran

It is a 1943 Izhevsk that you have correctly identified as "badly botched'. If it doesn't shoot as is, there is little to be gained from spending any more on it.

Millman, do you have any idea why the barrel has what appear to be two S/Ns?

Welcome to the board, the second serial number is an assembly number used at the factory before the official serial number was applied. This is still chambered for 7.62x54r? I have seen a lot of crazy shit done to milsurps by Bubba's trying to convert it to some form of " hunting rifle" but I have never seen someone rotate a barrel like that. For one thing Mosin barrels are known to be tough to remove, and this configuration would be dangerous beyond belief opening up the headspace far beyond a simple fail on the field headspace gauge. This one I would sideline for parts, there is no way of knowing what Bubba did to get that barrel loose. Heat? Over torque? No way I would trust receiver or barrel.

NavyGeo wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:58 pm Millman, do you have any idea why the barrel has what appear to be two S/Ns?

Some rifles do have numbers on the bottom and some don't. Might be a re-arsenal thing. The barrel has been taken off and put back upside down? Somebody has spent some money putting lipstick on a pig.

My theory is that the person who 'gave up' on this Mosin spun the barrel 180 degrees to hide the rear-sight base area. I'm thinking that's why it won't chamber a round; if you look at the photo looking into the chamber you'll see that the barrel-face has a 'cutout' along one side. Because that cutout is positioned incorrectly it may be preventing the extractor from riding over and capturing the rim. The bolt stops at about 90% of full throw/rotation on a round, but cycles normally without a round.

As for no more money or lipsticking the pig, I won't disagree. However, this thing is a veteran of at least one major conflict, and if I can make it presentable and functional I'm going to. It's history deserves that effort.

Junk Yard Dog, I didn't see your post but thanks for providing some insight. I think the barrel was loosened up enough to hide that ugly area under the rear sight. I have the big honkin "receiver wrench" thingie along with the equally massive "barrel lock" thingie. Some of my research led me to some videos from a gentlemen who was fairly successful at pulling Mosin barrels. I remember him stating in one video that he'd seen torque values of 700 foot-pounds or more required to unthread some Mosin barrels!
When I first dove into this thing I took it to an experienced(older school) gunsmith. I remember he was perplexed because he used both a "go" and a "no go" gauge and couldn't get the bolt to close on either. He has offered to help realign the barrel, but I don't want to make him uncomfortable with any perception of liability. Therefore I'm going to do this on my own.

I have an Enfield SMLE No 1 mk III that I've returned to military kit. I bought it for $80. It was in a plastic stock. I spent a year searching Craigslist and Ebay and local shops acquiring the furniture. I lucked out on the lower fore-end(the really REALLY expensive part) when I found a gentlemen on EBay who makes all the stock pieces and sells them as kits. While speaking with him he offered to take his 'throw-out' pieces and craft a lower fore-end by laminating some together. It's not pretty, but he made me a great deal.

I also have a few other older firearms I've brought back to life. If anyone's interested I'll post photos.

Rick

I have at least one buttstock for the SMLE MKIII, I had one rifle sitting 25 years waiting for me to get to it. One day somebody offered a matching wood set, and eBay had the sight, and hardware, in ten days it was all done. That one had no metal alterations, just wood chopped and missing parts.

Sometimes they had an assembly number on the bottom. Assembly number is really speculation, but it has been suggested that it was used at the factory for some reason. What worries me is the upside down barrel. To get that way, it has either been loosened or has been removed completely, and had the chamber end shortened. This would explain the non chambering, and also the incorrect orientation.
I can appreciate a project, but this looks like a lost cause to me. In addition, this is a preservation forum, we like them as they left the arsenal where they were last used. Things like this tend to work the locals up. We would however like to see your complete guns.

That looks like a re-barrel from here. That could explain why the barrel would have tightened up in the wrong orientation.

I understand restoration projects, but this would require a divine resurrection. I would use the few remaining parts for another project and give this one a decent burial.

Based on what I see, you are fortunate not to be able to chamber a round. There is really nothing that can be done for this rifle unless you wish to spend a ton of money. And, really, there is a possibility that the barrel was rechambered. Bottom line is that you would need to rebarrel this gun, replace the bolt, buy an appropriate stock and who knows what else. And really, for under $300 anymore you can get a pretty decent Mosin 91/30. I've always liked finding Mosins that could be brought back to life but this one is beyond help. A showcase ultimate bubba...

The second serial number is the lot # of the steel used in it's production. That one is botched pretty badly.

millman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:16 pm We would however like to see your complete guns.

This is my SMLE. I apologize, it's a BSA, not actually an Enfield. I put a dark stain on the wood to protect it until I could get to sanding it down to match the metal. I bought it with a plastic stock, and had to use EBay and Numrich to source all the pieces to bet it back the way it should be. A local gunsmith gave me a fair deal to inlet the stock pieces; I didn't feel I had the necessary skill yet. I still need a few attaching screws, and I still need to sand the stock to fit the metal. I plan to use a dark walnut stain once it's all fitted properly.



Most of the pertinent markings:





Here is an older Mossberg 835; 12 gauge, 3.5" chamber. I bought it for $150, and it was extremely dirty; the action wouldn't open. I thoroughly cleaned it, and under the dirt the finish was very poorly preserved. It's been refinished a dark brown, with blonde furniture. I bleached the wood after stripping it, cleaned up some dents(steam works well) and am going to use matte varnish to seal it.







Here is an old Colt "Police Positive Special" in .38 Special. It came to me with no grips, and was badly rusted. It's been reblued to a matte finish, and after a lot of searching and fitting it's been regripped with this older set of King Murad Pointer Target Grips. If I'm wearing a suit(as opposed to casual clothing) this is my carry weapon. I am a sworn Peace Officer, and I hold a current Alabama Pistol Permit. I carry it with the old Federal HydraShock ammunition.







These two pistols are also 'rescues' that were in frankly horrible condition when I purchased them for about $150 each. One is a Taurus 1911 with factory compensator. It also had no grips, and was in the original 3-tone metal finish. When I purchased this pistol it was so fouled the action wouldn't function. I actually had to drop it into a bucket of degreaser for about a week to get enough dirt out so that I could cycle/disassemble the poor thing. I had it redone in matte black and added Chechen Wood grips.
The other is a Bersa Thunder 45 "Ultra Compact" that was redone in a medium desert brown. This gun was missing the grips, and was also in it's original multi-tone metal finish. I wasn't able to find any decent after-market grips, but I was able to find an original grip on EBay. It didn't have any magazines either, and I found two in my local gun store...believe it or not!! The gunshop owners were actually pretty happy to sell them as they'd been collecting dust on the shelf for years. These two guys alternate as my in-uniform backup weapons, loaded with 230 grain ball.







This beauty is my Paternal Grandmother's Iver Johnson .32 S&W 5-shot top-break revolver. She and Grandpa lived in Illinois during the 20s and 30s. Grandpa was a coal miner, and worked at a mine that was not friendly to unions. When the unions started coercing miners to join my Grandpa gave this to my Grandma for protection. My Dad has a newspaper article from that period detailing an incident where his mom used the gun to shoot 3 unioners who had broken into their home(at night when Grandpa was in the mine) with bats and guns. Evidently 2 died, one went from the hospital to jail. No charges were brought against Grandma. Feisty old bird, even in her last years living with us.
I actually used this revolver while I was attending a gunsmithing academy decades ago! I had to make two springs for the pistol to operate, and then used it to learn how to hot blue. I have been looking for a 38 S&W Iver Johnson to pair up with this old coot; I want to put them into a shadow box with my Grandma and Grandpa's pictures.







This last weapon is my SKS. I bought this for $125; it had a plastic stock and a 30 round "AK" style banana clip. I put it back to a more correct appearance, with the exception of a flash-suppressor added on just because I wanted it(kind of like the Mosin). I had to purchase a complete stock, a complete magazine assembly, and a bayonet. Last year my son returned from service in Alaska; he'd left his SKS with a fellow soldier up there who...lost it...go figure. So I was happy to let him have this one.







So those are a few of my refinished weapons. I have plenty more, and as you can see some are still being worked on. I appreciate everyone's comments concerning what I should do with my Mosin; the fact is I just can let a WW II combat veteran go to the scrapyard. I may not ever shoot it, but I'm going to fiddle with it until I get it correct. If anyone's interested I'll update this thread when I'm done with it.

I hate it when I hear people say "I'll fiddle". I see not one of the guns above that have anything near the issues the Mosin has. Unless you are an experienced gun smith, your fiddling could get you or someone else killed. Plug the chamber and fiddle to your heart's content - make it non shootable or pay the big bucks to have it totally rebuilt. Buy a couple more junkers and maybe you can salvage a decent bolt, barrel, receiver and stock.

qz2026 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:21 am Buy a couple more junkers and maybe you can salvage a decent bolt, barrel, receiver and stock.

I may be missing something critical here. Although I have no idea if this combination of receiver, barrel, and bolt will ever headspace properly you're speaking as if those three components are junk. Is there some flaw or failure you've observed that I'm not seeing? I've spun dozens of barrels off of and onto receivers, and have headspaced all sorts of firearms. I do understand that having proper headspace is a necessity for safety. With the exception of not being properly headspaced at this time I hadn't seen anything that made me believe my Mosin's receiver, barrel, or bolt were unsafe. If I am missing some critical observation please point it out to me!

The way the barrel is, it looks to me as though the back has been faced off, letting it screw in farther and resulting in the misalignment, ( or it needs to be to correct the alignment). At any rate, I would think it would need to be rechambered. Recutting the chamber deeper would at least make me worry. We are usually going to err on the side of caution in our advice. This is a preservation forum, not a gunsmithing forum, we advocate leaving them original so they don't end up like this to start with.

In other words we don't want anyone saying you were alive without rifle parts sticking out of your head before Jim told you to go and turn that barrel on the receiver and fire away.

Junk Yard Dog wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:03 pm In other words we don't want anyone saying you were alive without rifle parts sticking out of your head before Jim told you to go and turn that barrel on the receiver and fire away.

Thank you for showing concern for the well-being of someone new to the forum; shows the professionalism here. I hadn't ever considered NOT using a remote trigger/sandbag enclosure to function, then proof test the rifle if I ever got it finished. Please do not think me overly foolish. I understand the dangers of dumping 30-40k cup down an unknown barrel/against an unknown locking lug! Anyways, as this rifle doesn't meet the standards of your forum, I will no longer present any posts concerning it.

For Admin, please delete this thread at OP request.

The way I see it, you have at least $150 worth of parts from your $75 investment. You could part it out or use it to complete a more intact Mosin project rifle.