The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

Hi all, I'd like to share my new purchase. It's a 1943 Izhevsk 91/30, original full factory matching, including bayonet. I'd appreciate all your thoughts on it!

Its cool that it's all matching numbers, it looks a bit rough... The machining looks pretty course, and the finish on the gun stock looks a bit beat up- The symbol on the buttstock is very cool though, and I bet if you clean it up a bit, it will be a great shooter, and a cool one for your collection.

If I saw that for sale, I probably would have bought it too

GT_80 wrote:Its cool that it's all matching numbers, it looks a bit rough... The machining looks pretty course, and the finish on the gun stock looks a bit beat up- The symbol on the buttstock is very cool though, and I bet if you clean it up a bit, it will be a great shooter, and a cool one for your collection.

If I saw that for sale, I probably would have bought it too

Yeah, it's a bit rough, but it's indicative of what was going on in Russia by 1943, rushed production. It doesnt seem to have went through a refurb, but if it did at all, it was very light.

It's a refurbished M91/30. The numbers match because they made them match when they refurbished the rifle. Also the red shellac gives it away.

Read this
app.php/page/56

This is the refurbishment your rifle went through after the war. Nothing wrong with this, just some are all original and hard to find.

Dolk

Very nice! Some may say its rough and not like it. But it shows how they expedited the war time need for rifles. Put it next to a rifle from the 1930s and you can see the beautiful differences. Shoots just the same.

Looks are nothing. What you are holding in your hands is a piece of history. When it's altered is when it is sad to see. The history is lost. Your rifle is a great example of Russian / Soviet history. Just as it is. AND, you can shoot it!!

Looks like factory matching to me. Fonts seem to match. Bolt was ground then restamped in the original font. Factory oops and corrected? Nice one.

Lucky to have the matching bayonet. Not many rifles have that, particularly refurbished ones.

AMCHornet wrote:Lucky to have the matching bayonet. Not many rifles have that, particularly refurbished ones.

Do you know why refurb bayonets don't match? That is the fault of the dealers here. All the bayonets were taken off the rifles and put in one pile. They were wrapped in oil paper and put in the bottom of the crates. The the matching rifles were put in the case next. After long storage they were sold to the USA market. The dealers here didn't care if the bayonets matched or not. They sold a rifle and grabbed a bayonet from the pile at the bottom to send with it. OR, they kept the bayonets and sold the rifles and sold the bayonets separately. So not many refurbs ended up with the right bayonet because at first, no one cared.

Later imports came boxed from russia separately with their bayonet. Some dealers removed those bayonet (and oil bottle and pouches) to sell separately. Some did not.

Dolk

AMCHornet wrote:Lucky to have the matching bayonet. Not many rifles have that, particularly refurbished ones.

Do you know why refurb bayonets don't match? That is the fault of the dealers here. All the bayonets were taken off the rifles and put in one pile. They were wrapped in oil paper and put in the bottom of the crates. The the matching rifles were put in the case next. After long storage they were sold to the USA market. The dealers here didn't care if the bayonets matched or not. They sold a rifle and grabbed a bayonet from the pile at the bottom to send with it. OR, they kept the bayonets and sold the rifles and sold the bayonets separately. So not many refurbs ended up with the right bayonet because at first, no one cared.

Later imports came boxed from russia separately with their bayonet. Some dealers removed those bayonet (and oil bottle and pouches) to sell separately. Some did not.

Dolk

racerguy00 wrote:Looks like factory matching to me. Fonts seem to match. Bolt was ground then restamped in the original font. Factory oops and corrected? Nice one.

Don't look matching to me

Look at the second digit. What looks like a Y. Notice the barrel serial number (Y) is nice and square, but the bottom two are rounded over.
Different Fonts. Done at different times.

Good eye

dolk wrote:

racerguy00 wrote:Looks like factory matching to me. Fonts seem to match. Bolt was ground then restamped in the original font. Factory oops and corrected? Nice one.

Don't look matching to me

Look at the second digit. What looks like a Y. Notice the barrel serial number (Y) is nice and square, but the bottom two are rounded over.
Different Fonts. Done at different times.

ser2.png

It looks like the lighting in my first photo is making it look squared. Here is another photo in better lighting and without oil on the receiver. You can see it looks more rounded.

When I see grind marks on the bolt handle I always assume force matched refurb.

millman wrote:When I see grind marks on the bolt handle I always assume force matched refurb.

That was questioned on Gunboards and much of the consensus was that it was a factory mistake that was corrected on the spot, without taking the time to machine nicely over the grind marks, then restamp. Which is totally plausible in 1943 Russia. You can see a faint 4 still there.

From comments on the Gunboards post, many have said it's factory matching, others have said refurb, and even a light refurb. Often times on rifles like these, you just don't know at the end of the day and have to assume. They've been through a lot and seen a lot!

I think it more plausible that in 1943 they would have just let it go with any stamping errors it may have had. Like you say there is no telling at this point and all we have are opinions. It is a cool rifle regardless.

dolk wrote:

AMCHornet wrote: Do you know why refurb bayonets don't match? That is the fault of the dealers here. All the bayonets were taken off the rifles and put in one pile. They were wrapped in oil paper and put in the bottom of the crates. The the matching rifles were put in the case next. After long storage they were sold to the USA market. The dealers here didn't care if the bayonets matched or not. They sold a rifle and grabbed a bayonet from the pile at the bottom to send with it. OR, they kept the bayonets and sold the rifles and sold the bayonets separately. So not many refurbs ended up with the right bayonet because at first, no one cared.

Yeah I know, and that is why it pisses me off.


About the stamped numbers not matching in font: you can drive yourself crazy trying to determine how much of your rifle is original as in were always paired to that particular barrel. The vast majority of refurbished rifles have no original parts what so ever. None. The receiver and sometimes the bolt head are usually the only original parts to the barrel. Everything else came from other rifles.

Many sources say the refurbishment procedure on these rifles was to disasemble each one down to the tiniest parts. Each of those parts were then sorted and thrown into bins with those same parts from literally thousands of other rifles. All the barrel bands went into one bin, all the bolt heads into another bin, all the butt plates into another bin, all the action screws into another bin... They were then all refinished by the batch and picked at basically random to be assembled into rifles. The assembler would just reach into the bin and grab one of the part they needed. If this is truely the case, the chances of a gun having even one of it's original parts is 1 in thousands.

That's how refurbishment was handled here also with Garands, '03's and such. When dealing with millions of weapons there is just no other way to do it in less than a century.

They are still not the same (exactly same stamp) even after the second photo of the barrel shank, but .....
Take a look at the 4 then. The horizontal line goes past the main upright on your last photo of the barrel shank. It does not go beyond on the others. There are a few more if you look hard enough. Like the first letter on the barrel shank (looks like a n) compared to the first letter on the butt plate . Butt plate at the bottom swings out to the left. That is common as is the straight font on the battel. But different fonts.. And there are others.

An no, I don't have good eyes. They are bad close up!

Dolk

As someone said we all have opinions and no bodies are exactly alike. I kind of put this in the capture without bring back papers or shaky bring back papers. I try to deal in knowns and not a suspected area when I collect and pay accordingly. My gut thoughts value wise on this is about $200 to $250 at the most because of the rough conditions it appears to be in. As far as fonts and stamps it is a refurb with mottled stamps which cause questions to be asked that will never be answered with 100% surety. I used number stamps for many years at work and If I tried I could make you believe all the stampings on parts came from different sets of number stamps. I only had one set I used for many years and they were a good set made by Starret I believe. When I first started using the stamps they were a cheap set and they were worn out in no time and I was constantly nailing fingers and having them fly off the targeted area. The good set I bought with my own money from our vendor were locked up till I had to use them cause they were a harder metal and stamped anything with no problems. So I can only say I hope you paid about what I gave you for value and anything above that Good Luck getting that value out of it!

As there are different opinions on this rifle there will be different values for it and of course the amounts people will pay will vary too. To each his own and I respect what peoples opinions are and what they will pay too. On the other site he presented this rifle some heavy hitters came to his defense and basically said this rifle could be 100% as presented. I don't agree and that is what makes the world go around. If we all agreed on things what a boring world this would be. I know from personal experience hitting number stamps from different angles will change what is stamped in the metal so talks about fonts sort of doesn't really sink into my hard German head.

I just hope that not a bunch of money changed hands here and both the buyer and seller are pleased for that is the best we can hope for. Opinions are free for the most part in life and for the most part are only valued to the person who makes the opinion. I guess this is what I'm keeping in mind here. Bill