Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)

[ScribeSlendy]

So yesterday I posted This thread asking for help identifying a scoring that circled the end of the barrel of a Mosin Nagant carbine I had just purchased at a gun show. This led to much confusion, as it seemed as though the scoring and mark near the end of it indicated that it was the barrel of an M44 that had it's bayonet attachment removed. It also has an incorrect date that has been machined in over an almost completely worn away date. A few suggested that it might be a 91/38; however, it has the sight ring of an M38 and lacks the proper Czech marking on the receiver, so that seems to rule that option out. The stock lacks a bayonet groove, which points to it being that of a M38 stock.

I've included a picture album of most of the gun, as well as all of the markings I could find on it. There seem to be a few on the stock that I couldn't capture, as they were so worn away. There are also no markings on the top of the tang. If anyone has any idea of what type of Mosin Nagant this carbine actually is, that would be fantastic. At the end of the day, it's still a gorgeous gun and one I plan on cleaning up and putting rounds through, but knowing what it is would be a plus.



One side



Other side



What I assume are Import marks



Barrel Shank markings indicate it to be a later model Izhevsk (note the date that was added later over the faded out one)



Comparison of other dating engravings vs mine (credit to NLMosin for image)



Markings on right side of barrel shank. Cant tell what the top one is, bottom is a circle 8



Markings on left side of barrel shank. Here you have the firing proof and a half worn-away mark that looks like a circle with a symbol in it. Only a > is visible inside the circle.



Former bayonet ring and crosspin marking



Another picture of the ring



Top of the rear sight




Side of the rear sight



Front of front sight



Side of front sight



Down both sights



Rear of cocking knob



Izhevsk Arrow on top of cocking knob



Underside numbers



Izhevsk Arrow on the underside



Strange markings on the stock



Faded markings on the stock, possibly an H inside



Faded markings on the inside of the right stock groove. One is some circled Cyrillic that looks kind of like an H



Faded markings on the inside of the left stock groove. There is also the same 3Ɛ marking as the stock and some uncircled Cyrillic lettering



Buttstock lettering



Number right above butt of gun

[Junk Yard Dog]

The stock looks like a typical Soviet refurb, the metal is not refinished, that interesting repair to the sight, no import mark? Could be something that was built from parts. Year range is a bit late for SCW but not for Korea or Vietnam.

[Darryl]

Looks like the bolt was "blued" at one time.....Well, painted black. Same as the rest of the rifle.
Was a M44 at one time and the bayonet mount was removed and the pin hole filled in.
Wrong font on serial number for a 1939?
Carbine rear site.
Miss matched serial numbers

Sure was put together from parts, that's for sure. Completely painted black. That is not common. Arsenals used black paint to "touch up" area. Don't recall a completely painted rifle.

Who knows who and when it was all done and why.

Dolk

[B24]

Have you had it out of the stock and looked at the date on the bottom of the tang?
Interesting carbine.

[ScribeSlendy]

The stock looks like a typical Soviet refurb, the metal is not refinished, that interesting repair to the sight, no import mark? Could be something that was built from parts. Year range is a bit late for SCW but not for Korea or Vietnam.

What's the repair to the sight?

[ScribeSlendy]

Looks like the bolt was "blued" at one time.....Well, painted black. Same as the rest of the rifle.
Was a M44 at one time and the bayonet mount was removed and the pin hole filled in.
Wrong font on serial number for a 1939?
Carbine rear site.
Miss matched serial numbers

Sure was put together from parts, that's for sure. Completely painted black. That is not common. Arsenals used black paint to "touch up" area. Don't recall a completely painted rifle.

Who knows who and when it was all done and why.

Dolk

Well, clearly 1939 isnt the proper date on the receiver, but seems like it's still mismatched. Kinda neat though, I like the mystery of it. May not be a collector's piece like I hoped (was going to fix it up and trade it towards a 91/30 PU), but I'm still happy with it. I'll just keep it around as my fun gun.

[ScribeSlendy]

Have you had it out of the stock and looked at the date on the bottom of the tang?
Interesting carbine.

Gonna do that once I have the time to maintenance the gun (needs some cleaning before I can fire, bore is all gunked, there's some rust, etc)

[racerguy00]

Partway down the page is,an m38 with the same front sight as yours.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareM38s.htm

[SA1911a1]

So the consensus is that it is an oddball legitimate M-38? That would certainly be good news for the OP.

[Darryl]

So the consensus is that it is an oddball legitimate M-38? That would certainly be good news for the OP.

The problem is, you have really nothing to compare it to. Two rifles are not enough to say what and when this happened to the rifle.

For me, if it weren't painted and especially the bolt, I'd be more comfortable with it. But the Russians never painted the bolts (nor blued them). Only the Finns Blued" bolts, but didn't paint them.

I just don't know enough to be comfortable with commenting on the rifle at all.

[ScribeSlendy]

So the consensus is that it is an oddball legitimate M-38? That would certainly be good news for the OP.

Good news would certainly be nice, and the lack of any foreign markings makes me think/hope that it's a legitimate unaltered (other than the original Frankenstein refurb) gun. However, as the other poster pointed out, painting the gun wasn't a practiced method, which throws it all off

[steelbuttplate]

So the consensus is that it is an oddball legitimate M-38? That would certainly be good news for the OP.

M-44/38. The date is fairly new(not brand new) or it would have the same pitting as the rest. Find the origin of the rear sight screw and manufacture of the black paint. That should be easy.

[ScribeSlendy]

So the consensus is that it is an oddball legitimate M-38? That would certainly be good news for the OP.

M-44/38. The date is fairly new(not brand new) or it would have the same pitting as the rest. Find the origin of the rear sight screw and manufacture of the black paint. That should be easy.

How do I go about doing that?

[Junk Yard Dog]

The stock looks like a typical Soviet refurb, the metal is not refinished, that interesting repair to the sight, no import mark? Could be something that was built from parts. Year range is a bit late for SCW but not for Korea or Vietnam.

What's the repair to the sight?

That would be the screw someone stuck in the hole were the pin holding the rear sight slider should be. This is what is sometimes called a field expedient repair, soldier is lazy and poorly supervised, allows rear sight ladder to rust in place so the pin snaps off when he heeds to open it. In a panic caused by having a near useless weapon when something very bad is about to happen that will require the weapon be usable or soldier be soon dead he finds whatever will fit in the pin hole to fix it. I am surprised it's not a bent rusty nail. This is not the sort of thing you would see on weapons used by the Red Army, they had a well organized repair operation going and broken weapons were repaired or replaced, supervision of soldiers care of the weapons was tight. In the Red Army that rifle was the property of the state and you would do better to step in front of a speeding bus than have to explain to the NKVD why your negligence caused damage to the states property. Things were less formal among the buffer states army's and their reserve units, and even more relaxed among some of the client state forces like the VC during the Vietnam conflict. So when you see shit like that done to a rifle you start to get an idea were to look for it's former users.

[Junk Yard Dog]

So the consensus is that it is an oddball legitimate M-38? That would certainly be good news for the OP.

M-44/38. The date is fairly new(not brand new) or it would have the same pitting as the rest. Find the origin of the rear sight screw and manufacture of the black paint. That should be easy.

How do I go about doing that?

You don't, he is busting your balls. The black paint was used extensively on the other side of the Iron Curtain to hide any number of bluing sins, cheap and effective in the short run.

[steelbuttplate]

The screw, and No import marks?... And corrosion, different font,looks very VC, is there excessive wear at the lower end(toe) of the buttstock?

[ScribeSlendy]

The screw, and No import marks?... And corrosion, different font,looks very VC, is there excessive wear at the lower end(toe) of the buttstock?

I wouldn't say excessive wear. The paint is worn off from shouldering, but it's not any more worn than the rest of the rifle

[Darryl]

The black paint was used extensively on the other side of the Iron Curtain to hide any number of bluing sins, cheap and effective in the short run.

Except, this rifle is completly painted at one time. Right down to the bolt. No one did that. Touch up yes. I've seen as much as the entire barrel shank. But never the entire rifle including the bolt.

That is completely different.

Dolk

[Junk Yard Dog]

The British did that except they did it as the actual rifle finish, not touch up. The commies used it to hide stuff, rust, bad blue, and so on.

[ScribeSlendy]

This certainly is an interesting piece I have on my hands. If anything, should get some interesting conversation going (like it is here)