The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

Hello all fellow Mosin keepers,

New to the forum. I posted 2 pics one if my 1943 m44 I lucked into by happenstance and another of one from gunbroker. Realizing the 43 was a lower production year I set out to see if they commanded a sort of premium (not that I'd ever sell any of my guns but a knowledge quest for knowledge sake). You can tell which one is mine due to the green carpet in my living room floor. My question is does any agree with me that the date looks doctored on the other picture? The 43 of it definitely looks different than the 19 and the base of the 4 looks more like the 19 but different than the top of the 4. Is there any other explanation for this other than some guy in his garage scrubbing it down and remarking? Any replies and comments are appreciated. If there is a logical explanation do not judge my newb ness.

Thanks

Mike

Nope, looks ok to these old eyes

Markings on '43s are sometimes really faint. It could have been restamped in refurb since I see no r after the date. What'a the date on the receiver tang? Receiver should be 43 also. In any event it looks OK to me. I don'the see anything telling me it was messed with by someone here.

Looks good to me. The Russians had the Germans on their doorstep in 43', so barrel stamping quality control was the least of their concerns.

Looks fine to me.

Thanks guys! I'll check out the listing if they relist and see if I can find anything else. I appreciate the knowledge. I may have jumped the gun a bit. I was reading to watch out for counterfeit nazi marked high powers. This looked weird to me so I appreciate the explanation.

mproko wrote:Thanks guys! I'll check out the listing if they relist and see if I can find anything else. I appreciate the knowledge. I may have jumped the gun a bit. I was reading to watch out for counterfeit nazi marked high powers. This looked weird to me so I appreciate the explanation.

Mosin Nagants are just starting to creep into the price bracket where a counterfeiter would consider it worth the trouble. And they wouldn't waste their time on M44's.

The only thing I would say about the 1943 M44s is that given the numbers that have shown up here in the states the production numbers formerly given may have been low.

It could have been a recycled receiver or a receiver made and stamped in 43, then assembled into a carbine later.

The new book puts the 1943 M44 production numbers at around 45,000 ( I don't have the book with me, so this is approximate) This is 5000-10,000 less rifles than we thought had been made that year. It is an excellent candidate for fakery as it's price is higher than most other M44's, but this one looks normal enough. I think the price will have to hit around $700-$800 to make a fake profitable. First someone has to start with an M44 that looks close in wartime style production, all M44's are now near or over $300, option two is try and make one out of a 91/30, difficult except for the most skilled gunsmiths and expensive as early M44 parts would be needed. The markings would have to be forged, also expensive, and difficult. These fakes only fool the uneducated consumer, so get the books, read up on the net and educate yourself before buying any milsurp, or antique. We forget that these items we buy fall into the category of antiques, and the antique trade has always had a healthy number of fakers of everything from artworks to furniture.

I have always heard the 1943 dated M44's referred to as being field issued and being about 50,000 0r so and being sort of a prototype with changes made after they went into full production. One thing that always amazed me about the 50,000 number was I have had so many of those I have lost count over the years but I would say in the range of 50 or more I have owned over the years! For that reason alone based on nothing else I really wonder if that figure isn't maybe on the low side and they made more of them? Bill

The figure is from the new book that was researched from the actual Soviet arsenal documents. I have two '43 M44's myself and they came to me easily enough, no epic search like I had with the 1947 M44. My guess is you ended up with so many '43's because early on we didn't know they were special. We just thought they were another of the most common year wartime Mosin, just another '43, and people were happy to unload them first thinking they were the cheapest and easiest year to come by. They were wrong and you probably made good money off of that unless you didn't know at the time either.

Junk Yard Dog wrote:The figure is from the new book that was researched from the actual Soviet arsenal documents. I have two '43 M44's myself and they came to me easily enough, no epic search like I had with the 1947 M44. My guess is you ended up with so many '43's because early on we didn't know they were special. We just thought they were another of the most common year wartime Mosin, just another '43, and people were happy to unload them first thinking they were the cheapest and easiest year to come by. They were wrong and you probably made good money off of that unless you didn't know at the time either.

I still regret selling you that 43 M44 of mine... And I too had a devil of a time finding a 47 M44. Also, I already had 3 43 M44's before I got 1 44 Izhevsk M44. Weird...

It's still here someplace, My entire M44 collection is in cosmoline at the moment. I got one from you and one from Bob. Yours was the refurb, Bob's was issued, probably part of the Romanian hoard, but could be something brought in earlier. I don't remember.

I got a 43' from you, (Rongo), in a trade for the K.Kale and that same week I won a 47'' off Auction Arms.

Longcolt44 wrote:I got a 43' from you, (Rongo), in a trade for the K.Kale and that same week I won a 47'' off Auction Arms.

I remember... I had to do it. Had to get my K. Kale back.

Junk Yard Dog wrote:The new book puts the 1943 M44 production numbers at around 45,000 ( I don't have the book with me, so this is approximate) This is 5000-10,000 less rifles than we thought had been made that year. It is an excellent candidate for fakery as it's price is higher than most other M44's, but this one looks normal enough. I think the price will have to hit around $700-$800 to make a fake profitable. First someone has to start with an M44 that looks close in wartime style production, all M44's are now near or over $300, option two is try and make one out of a 91/30, difficult except for the most skilled gunsmiths and expensive as early M44 parts would be needed. The markings would have to be forged, also expensive, and difficult. These fakes only fool the uneducated consumer, so get the books, read up on the net and educate yourself before buying any milsurp, or antique. We forget that these items we buy fall into the category of antiques, and the antique trade has always had a healthy number of fakers of everything from artworks to furniture.

Please note that 45000 is planned quantity, not actual production number. In 1943 percent of plan implementation was always close to 100%, so real produced quantity can be "+" or "-" few thousands. But produced quantity definitely can't be 60000,70000 or more.
Also don't forget possibility, that barrel date and serial number were stamped at different stages. date was stamped when barrel was produced, serial number - after carbine was tested and assembled. So some quantity of early 1944 carbines possibly can have 1943 date at the barrel.

My second Mosin that I bought was a '44 M44 for the price of 99.95 plus shipping. They also stocked some '43 M44's but they were 50.00 more. After I saw how nice my 1944 was, I decided to order a '43 a few months later, but they were all gone.