The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

Hey guys, just wondering, what is the lowest serial number you've ever seen on a 91/30 ? I know that in 1938 the Soviets switched to the Cyrillic prefixes, so I guess this will only be relevant for pre 1938 rifles.

I've got a 1936 with number 653 I believe. Had a friend that had a 1000 on a 37. Could have sworn a 1 was posted around here sometime in the past year.

Single digits, but that means nothing on these rifles. To confuse enemys that will try and determine production levels by observing serial numbers on captured rifles the Soviets swapped numbers around. They might start the year at serial number 4578, and switch a month later to 6723, then start with 8 a month after that.

I 've seen serial number 1 on an early 30's date refurb. It had a receiver dated to the prior year. Lowest I've owned was #34 I think, also on a prior years receiver.

Junk Yard Dog wrote:Single digits, but that means nothing on these rifles. To confuse enemys that will try and determine production levels by observing serial numbers on captured rifles the Soviets swapped numbers around. They might start the year at serial number 4578, and switch a month later to 6723, then start with 8 a month after that.

Really ? I was reading this page http://www.mosinnagant.net/ussr/soviet-m9130.asp and according to it, up until 1937, rifles started with serial number 1 each year. Am I missing something ? I am a noob admittedly,

racerguy00 wrote:I 've seen serial number 1 on an early 30's date refurb. It had a receiver dated to the prior year. Lowest I've owned was #34 I think, also on a prior years receiver.

Nice !

In my personal experience and from various posts, low serial numbered 91/30s (numbered under a few thousand) from before 1938 commonly have a receiver from the prior year. I always assumed that the receivers were dated before final assembly, and leftover ones were used at the beginning of the next year with low numbered barrels.

racerguy00 wrote:In my personal experience and from various posts, low serial numbered 91/30s (numbered under a few thousand) from before 1938 commonly have a receiver from the prior year. I always assumed that the receivers were dated before final assembly, and leftover ones were used at the beginning of the next year with low numbered barrels.

I have a 1931 dated Izhevsk Ex dragoon with serial number 81. So does that mean the receiver was actually made in 1930 ? I have checked the tang and the date on it is 1931 as well. If that means anything.

The tang date is the actual receiver date. Maybe there weren't many or any leftovers that prior year.

FR0STY54R wrote:

Junk Yard Dog wrote:Single digits, but that means nothing on these rifles. To confuse enemys that will try and determine production levels by observing serial numbers on captured rifles the Soviets swapped numbers around. They might start the year at serial number 4578, and switch a month later to 6723, then start with 8 a month after that.

Really ? I was reading this page http://www.mosinnagant.net/ussr/soviet-m9130.asp and according to it, up until 1937, rifles started with serial number 1 each year. Am I missing something ? I am a noob admittedly,

I have not seen the provenance for that boards information, however as the Soviets do not talk to anyone about their weapons production, especially not the west. We do know that they had ways of confusing serial numbers that go back to Czarist days, typical paranoia . Here in the us we started at serial number one and went from there, we made millions of rifles during the wars and we didn't care who knew it.

I have a serial number 17 on a refurb which is from a 30's year which escapes me right now because the book is out in the shop from some digging I did for someone last week. I have a 1918 refurb that has a higher number on it. Serials make little or no sense to me even though people continue to make surveys of serial numbers over and over. The Russians were and continue to be very evasive on the numbering systems with contradictory information here and there. Even the Finn's have tendencies to have contradictions to serial numbers being made in order and for the most part they tried to be very careful that way. Things and events that happened years ago are lost in time and simple numbers can rarely be used to sort their chronological order out I am afraid. Bill

FR0STY54R wrote:Hey guys, just wondering, what is the lowest serial number you've ever seen on a 91/30 ? I know that in 1938 the Soviets switched to the Cyrillic prefixes, so I guess this will only be relevant for pre 1938 rifles.

The lowest I have is "81" on a 43 Tula barrel and a 42 Izhevsk recevier, it is also mark "CH" with brass upper handguard ends on a war-time stock.

Junk Yard Dog wrote:

FR0STY54R wrote:

Junk Yard Dog wrote:Single digits, but that means nothing on these rifles. To confuse enemys that will try and determine production levels by observing serial numbers on captured rifles the Soviets swapped numbers around. They might start the year at serial number 4578, and switch a month later to 6723, then start with 8 a month after that.

Really ? I was reading this page http://www.mosinnagant.net/ussr/soviet-m9130.asp and according to it, up until 1937, rifles started with serial number 1 each year. Am I missing something ? I am a noob admittedly,

I have not seen the provenance for that boards information, however as the Soviets do not talk to anyone about their weapons production, especially not the west. We do know that they had ways of confusing serial numbers that go back to Czarist days, typical paranoia . Here in the us we started at serial number one and went from there, we made millions of rifles during the wars and we didn't care who knew it.

For what it's worth, apparently the text was by Karl-Heinz Wrobel. Perhaps taken from one of his books ?

Here is the full paragraph regarding serial numbers.

"Up to the year 1937 the serial numbering system of the Czarist era was continued, which means, rifles started with serial number one every year. There are no numbers with more than six digits. Tula used the German influenced, as my Russian friend told me, "No." in front of the numbers, Izhevsk did not.

Beginning 1938 the system of numbering changed. Serial numbers still began the year numbered from one, but now with a Cyrillic character as a prefix, followed by one to five numerals. After making 99.999 rifles the Soviets used two Cyrillic characters, followed by up to four numerals. There was no system in using the Cyrillic characters, which had the purpose to code the production data. The same way of numbering is found on the carbines M1938 and later M1944."

K-H was the one who posted that bit about the serial numbers being randomized back on the old board 6-7 years ago in response to a question like yours, he may have updated his information as his research is continuous. His information I would trust, I wish we still had access to the posts he made back then, he has some amazing Mosin's and related items.

I just he would still grace us with his presence every now and then.

I think I have the rifle referred to as number 1. It is a refurbed Tula in a pre-war refurbed stock. The date on the the barrel is 1931. It is marked OM1. There is the number 1 on bolt, floor plate , and buttplate. I have no idea what OM stands for. Probably was the first rifle for that organization, whatever it was. And like others say, it could have been produced in December of 1931 or whenever in that year for all I know.

I have this one, scrubbed probably Balkans.. Ser #7 sits in my safe as we speak

Junk Yard Dog wrote:K-H was the one who posted that bit about the serial numbers being randomized back on the old board 6-7 years ago in response to a question like yours, he may have updated his information as his research is continuous. His information I would trust, I wish we still had access to the posts he made back then, he has some amazing Mosin's and related items.

Ok, so the Karl Heinz article on the page I linked is obsolete information for sure ?


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FR0STY54R wrote:

Junk Yard Dog wrote:K-H was the one who posted that bit about the serial numbers being randomized back on the old board 6-7 years ago in response to a question like yours, he may have updated his information as his research is continuous. His information I would trust, I wish we still had access to the posts he made back then, he has some amazing Mosin's and related items.

Ok, so the Karl Heinz article on the page I linked is obsolete information for sure ?


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I would think that would be for Karl to say, wouldn't you? I mean it could be but then I really think only he would know or say right? Bill

My lowest.