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1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:09 pm
by Lotema
This is a follow up to my original 1916 Tula PTG thread I posted earlier. In that thread catcracker wanted to nominate this one for submission into the show case. I modified the text to be a bit more informative and added a few additional photos for this as well. Please take a look and let me know whether you think this one is worthy of being in the showcase. Thank you in advance for the consideration.

I’m proud to preset to you a 1916 Tula “Peter the Great” M91 rifle which has some unique and interesting features. The Tula arsenal was founded by Czar Peter I in the Russian city of Tula in 1712. In 1912, to commemorate the 200th anniversary of the founding of the Tula arsenal, the barrel shank stamp was modified to include the inscription “Tula, Emperor, Peter the Great, Ordinance Factory”.
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The barrel of this rifle appears to still be matched with its original receiver, with the small Tula hammer and 916, representing the year 1916.
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When this rifle was manufactured in 1916, Russia was heavily involved in World War I, a member of the Triple Entente (including the United Kingdom, France and Russia). 1916 was a pivotal year in the war for Russia. In the spring of 1916, the Russians launched their second and last major offensive of the war. The offensive stretched from the Russian-Romanian border to Pinsk and lasted for ten weeks. While the Russians inflicted heavy casualties on the Austro-Hungarian army, the front did not significantly change.
One of the interesting features of this rifle is the small “circle JSE” stamp on the receiver, below the imperial eagles. The JSE stamp is from the Johann Springers Erben armory in Austria. From what I understand, this mark is relatively uncommon to find and so to me makes this a very interesting rifle. This rifle made its way to the front lines (possibly) only to wind up being captured by the enemy and sent back to Austria. This is the first rifle in my personal collection that is an Austrian capture.
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While being an Austrian capture alone makes this rifle very interesting, its story doesn’t end there. The rifle also has a number of Finnish traits to it, most prominently the [SA] (Suomen Armeija or Finnish Army) stamp on the left side of the barrel shank. This shows that the rifle was property of the Finnish army as late as 1942, when the [SA] marking was adopted.
After Finland broke away from Russia, they chose to adopt the M91 as their standard issue rifle, in part due to the vast numbers they already had on hand. In the 20’s and 30’s Finland purchased additional M91 rifles from Germany and Austria. It’s highly probably that this is when this rifle made its way to Finland, though that certainly cannot be definitively confirmed.
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The Finns typically would make minor changes to the M91s in their possession. Often the rear sights would have the Russian arshins crossed out on the left side and new ranges marked in meters on the right hand side.
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The following photos include various parts of the rifle in more detail:
The right side of the rifle in both shade and sun light.
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The left side of the rifle in both shade and sun light.
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The bolt appears to have been Finn-matched to the serial number on the barrel shank. While some of the numbers appear similar in font, others do not.
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The magazine floor plate appears to have been scrubbed of its original serial number and was not renumbered. It appears that the magazine has the small hammer Tula stamping, though possibly double struck. It also has an “R” stamping but it is not a “circle R” as was used by Remington.
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The barrel bands are the early M91, configuration 3 variety (as per 7.62x54r.net). The rear barrel band is marked with the small hammer Tula logo. The fit of the top hand guard in the rear barrel band is exceptionally tight. A light tapping with the hammer from my punch kit is needed to both take it out and put it back into place. (I use the non-metallic side of the hammer, covered with my stock cleaning rag to ensure I don’t harm the hand guards’ wood).
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The forward barrel band appears to have the Sestroryetsk arsenal mark on it, though it could potentially be Izhevsk with the bow worn off. The front band does not have the same fitting issues that the rear band does, it goes on effortlessly. The barrel band is held in place by the use of a small screw in front of the band. Above the retainer screw is a larger hole in the stock which may have at one point had a retaining bolt which provided the same functionality as the retaining screw. In this photo you can also see the C.A.I. import mark on the front of the barrel. Also shown is the cleaning rod which came with this rifle. As you can see, the cleaning rod is not a typical for a Mosin. In fact, this cleaning rod will not even fit in the bore beyond the counter bore.
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The butt plate of the rifle is also marked with the Sestroryetsk arrow. The number on the butt plate does not match the bolt and barrel, which is common with Finned rifles.
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There are a few stamps under the butt plate and it appears that there may have been an ink stamping as well, though I am not able to read it now.
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The stock does still have some remnants of the original cartouche. The photo below has been enhanced in order to help draw out details in the cartouche.
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The trigger is marked with the small hammer in a circle Tula logo.
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The rifle contains a small hammer Tula stamped one piece interrupter / ejector.
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Here are a few other photos that I thought would be interesting to show for this rifle.
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Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:37 am
by Judi and her Mosins
:soapbox:
. :bravo: :bravo: Very well written an excellent 1916 PTG,... Super looking Mosin. :thumbsup: I cast ny vote for Yes !, into the showcase. Judi and her Mosin's ;mywink;

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:00 am
by racerguy00
Great rifle, hard to find markings, again yes vote from me.

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:02 am
by neal45
That is certainly a showcase quality M91 and a showcase quality presentation.

I like your method of showing shade/sunlight photos side by side for comparison.

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:20 am
by travisgreyfox
WOW...I am currently starting a Mosin Nagant collection in my house. I will be willing to take donations in the form of rifles. :lol:

Seriously though, that is a gorgeous sight to behold.

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:23 am
by Rongo
It's been a long while since I have seen a rifle so in the white as this one.

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:26 am
by Rongo
Below is a link to an earlier thread regarding this rifle.

Previous Discussion on 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:30 am
by Lotema
Rongo wrote:It's been a long while since I have seen a rifle so in the white as this one.
I'll agree with that. The only area that really has any blue left on it is the magazine, under the wood line. Everything else is just small specks. It's had a very hard life!

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:34 am
by Rongo
As a reminder there already is an [SA] 1916 Tula Peter the Great with an Austrian WWF (Wiener Waffen Fabrik) capture mark on the Showcase but not the JSE "Josef Springers Erben" in oval Austrian arsenal mark as this one has; Which is probably a bit more uncommon. 1916 Tula Peter the Great Showcase Submission by Neal45
Another note; I'm always a bit concerned when they are severely in the white such as this one is... I would imagine the only real way to get them to this point is on purpose; But looking at the patina it was most likely done before any of us were ever born (At least most of us anyway). :lol:
It could have been prepared for a re-blue but never had it applied; But that is just my personal conjecture & we will probably never know. But a "Natural" progression of finish degradation would in fact show more blue in the protected areas such as under the wood... And this one does not show that.

But with that said I still find this to be a very interesting & hard to find piece I would be proud to own.

It has my vote. :wink:

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:19 pm
by Lotema
Thanks Rongo. I was hesitant to put this up for the show case since there was already the 1916 PTG there as well. The (JSE) stamp really being the defining feature of this one coaxed me into putting it up for submission. I agree as well about the volume of whiteness shown by this rifle. Like you mentioned, my best theory as to why would be that it was prepped to get re-blued but something else intervened. Maybe the Winter War or Continuation War. We'll never know for sure. I should get a better picture of the barrel area under the woodline for this as well. It does show some marks which in my mind tell a tale of somebody purposefully removing the remaining blue. I don't believe that the seller did this, he had a very strong anti-bubba stance when I was inquiring about the rifle. The gentleman he got it from has a huge stash of Finns that he's liquidating one by one and from the sounds of it wouldn't be the type to do this either. That person, at least as I understand it, was the first person outside of the Finnish army to own this one. He is also apparently selling a 1911 Ka3 to my seller very soon as well. I want to know what else he has in his cache of Finn rifles! I've got a few more on my "short list"..

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:37 pm
by Junk Yard Dog
Tail your buddy to the meet with the source, then arrange to "accidentally " meet the source when your buddy isn't around, strike up a conversation about millsurps. Wear a ANYBODY WHO LOVES MOSINS IS ONE COOL DUDE T shirt to catch his attentiion

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:13 pm
by Lotema
Junk Yard Dog wrote:Tail your buddy to the meet with the source, then arrange to "accidentally " meet the source when your buddy isn't around, strike up a conversation about millsurps. Wear a ANYBODY WHO LOVES MOSINS IS ONE COOL DUDE T shirt to catch his attentiion
:pointup: :thumbsup: The seller was a really good guy. He asked me want my "wish list" was and would let me know when the guy he gets them from has anything on the list. Top of my list is still a nice Sestroryetsk. I've got cash now but can't find one for sale. As soon as I'm out of cash, one will pop up!

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:27 pm
by BubbaDX
I absolutely love this Tula. It has such clear markings and fantastic patina. I like them with honest wear on the bluing and this one has it. Very cool!!! :vcool: :vcool: :thumbsup: :Drool1: :vcool: :vcool:

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:30 pm
by davesstuff1
:Drool1: :Drool1: :Drool1: :big shock: :big shock: :big shock: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :pointleft: :pointleft: :pointleft:

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:49 pm
by Rongo
Any last chime ins on this one??? It's a PTG, JSE & [SA] stamped & a hard to find beast. Downside is it's in the white & I say it's not a naturally progressed degradation. But with that aside... It's still an interesting piece.

As long as no one objects I will put it up on the Showcase on Monday. :wink:

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:53 pm
by etprescottazusa91
Rongo wrote:Any last chime ins on this one??? It's a PTG, JSE & [SA] stamped & a hard to find beast. Downside is it's in the white & I say it's not a naturally progressed degradation. But with that aside... It's still an interesting piece.

As long as no one objects I will put it up on the Showcase on Monday. :wink:
Nice presentation, rifle is showcase material for sure :Drool1: :thumbsup:

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:10 pm
by shoto2758
I love it,excellent presentation ..
Has my vote.
:thumbsup:

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:26 pm
by Rongo

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:41 am
by desdem12
Nice write up and presentation, pics :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Re: 1916 Tula M91 PTG - JSE & SA - Showcase Submission

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:05 am
by danman132x
Very nice! Love it :thumbsup: