The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

Hello Everyone…Need some qualified, honest feedback please.

I have been eyeballing this particular SWISS Model 1869/71 Vetterli on Empire Arms website for a couple of weeks, and I pulled the trigger last night and ordered it.

You can see the listing here..just scroll down about 16 gun listings http://www.empirearms.com/rifles.htm

Anyway, did I over pay for this thing at $625.00?? I'm finding that this rifle was never really an "infantry" rifle, and that is disappointing because I collect these things for the military history, etc…Although I appreciate the fact that it is an "excellent" clean example of a 144 year old rifle…Is it a good long term investment??

Anyway, If someone could shed some light on this I would appreciate…No I'm not planning on having the bolt reworked as a center fire…Perhaps one day I'll buy an additional bolt for that transformation.

You are paying extra because the maker is one of the smaller and harder to find ones. If this was the more common Sig made one it would sell in the $425-$475 range. Understand that you just bought a rifle that you can't shoot without alterations that would harm it's value. .44 Swiss rimfire has been off the shelf since 1940 and the few remaining collector rounds are unlikely to fire. I collect 69/71's and have 6 of them, not one has ever been fired, all are original matching examples . SPotless bores are not uncommon as there was little ammo for these even when they were fresh imports around 1900. The Vetterli had a quiet life on the range except for a few that were sent to Finland, and this is not one of them. This is a collector rifle, and a nice example, this was an infantry rifle, it armed the Swiss Military, and was a ground breaking design in it's day. It is a good investment, but you will have to be in it for the very long term, 20+ years to see a serious increase in value past inflation, I never bought any of mine with that in mind.

Understood. Thanks as always Junk Yard Dog! I feel better about it now.

I like the Swiss Vetterlis. They appeared during a time of high national fervor when all European countries did their own R&D on guns, before the Paul Mauser homogenized everything... They are beautiful, well made, and a developmental dead-end. Love 'em because of this, and all the gun genre of the period. I have a near mint M1871 that came to me covered with varnish, including the blued metal. A cheap "meat gun" sold as surplus back in the day, it cleaned up perfectly. I have another, an Italian Vetterli that was converted to 6mm from 11mm(?)for ww1. The gun is pretty rough, but one that has definitely "seen the elephant"...

The Europeans doing their own research? Maybe so, but in reality they constantly stole from one another. From spies obtaining information to reverse engineering captured or stolen rifles and ammo. The French developed both smokeless powder , the rifle to shoot it in, and the spritzer bullet, the Germans stole all three from them and used it to make their own versions. In creating their first smokeless powder cartridge rifle the Germans also stole from the Austrians the Mannlicher enblock clip loading system. When the US needed a new rifle in 1902 we stole the German 1898 Mauser design, slightly modified it, and called it the US M1903, we did it again for the US M1917, another action based partly on Mausers work. The Mosin borrows from the French Lebel also, at least in it's bolt head and extractor design. Thieving designs is as old as nations, steal the enemys ideas, test them, if they work you call them your own.

Francis Bannerman screwed people for years with the Vetterli, he bought the bulk of them from the Swiss just before the turn of the century, and sold then for the next 40 years or so. He would offer up the rifles for a cheap price with 20-40 rounds of "free" ammo, what he forgot to tell you was the surplus ammo supply was almost nonexistent . The Swiss had shot it all, sold very limited amounts as surplus, and Remington arms had to start production of the .41 Swiss rimfire round and sell it at retail price. People who bought the Vett did it because they wanted to avoid expensive retail ammo costs, in the end most vett"s ended up in closets and attics. Bannerman even cut the rifles down into sporting carbines to attract more suckers.

That Italian Vetterli is the M70/87/15, it was a wartime desperation rifle made by adding a sleeve to the barrels of the old 10.4mm infantry rifles to bring them down to 6.5mm . They were issued in this form to REMF's who needed a weapon but not necessarily a top quality one, after the war they were used with some success by competition shooters. Most look rough because while they converted the rifles to 6.5mm they did not refurbish the entire rifle. It still looks as it did when it was issued as the 10.4mm Fucile di Fanteria, Modello 1870/87 Vetterli-Vitali

I've been reading up on these that past few weeks. I think they are so interesting, that I will be braking my own rule of only owning shooters, and buying one someday in the near future.
I look forward to your posting of pictures.

Thanks catcracker..Yes, I found the rifle intriguing….that's why I bought it! I have a subscription to Iraqveteran8888 (Eric is a big milsurp collector, and he showcases all kinds of old military rifles on his channel) on Youtube, and he showcased a Vetterli recently, and I thought wow…what a cool looking gun! That's exactly why I bought mine recently for $625…I was just drawn to it. The description of the one I ordered seems fantastic..shiny bore, excellent condition, rare subcontractor, etc….so I'm excited about it!

It is a cool, cool looking gun!


Here's the link to Eric giving a history lesson and shooting (quite successfully) his Vetterli. Check it out! http://youtu.be/vRwDDA9e5Ak

I already seen the video. I also subscribe to Hickok45. He does a ton of reviews. And he has the same appreciation for military surplus. Well worth signing up for his site. Iraqveteran8888 has a lot of good information. But he is not above taking a military surplus rifle, and doing a bubba job on it. He has videos on how to do that too. First video I saw of him was refinishing a Mosin Nagant stock. But for the most part, his videos are educational.

Yea..It upsets me that Eric messes around with the integrity of the milsurp rifles sometimes..So is Hickok45 a good Youtube resource for milsurp reviews, etc?

I'll check him out!

Thanks,

Yea! I already know Hickok45..I've seen several of his videos!

Hickkok45 gets two thumbs up from me..


Iraqveteran8888.....not so much because of the torture tests he does on good rifles..

Junk Yard Dog wrote:The Europeans doing their own research? Maybe so, but in reality they constantly stole from one another. From spies obtaining information to reverse engineering captured or stolen rifles and ammo. The French developed both smokeless powder , the rifle to shoot it in, and the spritzer bullet, the Germans stole all three from them and used it to make their own versions. In creating their first smokeless powder cartridge rifle the Germans also stole from the Austrians the Mannlicher enblock clip loading system. When the US needed a new rifle in 1902 we stole the German 1898 Mauser design, slightly modified it, and called it the US M1903, we did it again for the US M1917, another action based partly on Mausers work. The Mosin borrows from the French Lebel also, at least in it's bolt head and extractor design. Thieving designs is as old as nations, steal the enemys ideas, test them, if they work you call them your own.

Francis Bannerman screwed people for years with the Vetterli, he bought the bulk of them from the Swiss just before the turn of the century, and sold then for the next 40 years or so. He would offer up the rifles for a cheap price with 20-40 rounds of "free" ammo, what he forgot to tell you was the surplus ammo supply was almost nonexistent . The Swiss had shot it all, sold very limited amounts as surplus, and Remington arms had to start production of the .41 Swiss rimfire round and sell it at retail price. People who bought the Vett did it because they wanted to avoid expensive retail ammo costs, in the end most vett"s ended up in closets and attics. Bannerman even cut the rifles down into sporting carbines to attract more suckers.

That Italian Vetterli is the M70/87/15, it was a wartime desperation rifle made by adding a sleeve to the barrels of the old 10.4mm infantry rifles to bring them down to 6.5mm . They were issued in this form to REMF's who needed a weapon but not necessarily a top quality one, after the war they were used with some success by competition shooters. Most look rough because while they converted the rifles to 6.5mm they did not refurbish the entire rifle. It still looks as it did when it was issued as the 10.4mm Fucile di Fanteria, Modello 1870/87 Vetterli-Vitali

Well, there is truth to what you say-
For example, right after the U.S. Civil War, many nations all at once developed "trapdoor" style breech loaders, trying to get some more milage out of the thousands of suddenly obsolete muzzle-loaders in stores. But, returning to the original premise,..."shedding light on this"... Switzerland and many other countries did plow ahead with their own R&D, manufacturing developmental dead-ends, particularly in the 1870's, pre-dating all your quoted examples....

The two most prolific breech loader conversion designs were Erskine S. Allin's conversions of the US Springfield rifles, and Jacob Snider's Enfield conversions for the British, Both men were Americans. The French Tabatière conversion also used the Snider design to convert older muskets to breech loader, other designs sprouted around this time 1860's-1870's, but between two American inventors you had two colonial powers and one emerging power armed with their design. These are a fascinating field of collecting that I have dabbled in over the years, and will continue to do so as examples come my way.

The Swiss 1869/71 Vetterli (the subject of this thread) is once again available, as the OP changed his mind after receiving it (as is his prerogative).

kroh wrote:The Swiss 1869/71 Vetterli (the subject of this thread) is once again available, as the OP changed his mind after receiving it (as is his prerogative).

Well now that's a shame, I would take it Dennis but at the moment my funds are tied up paying off the huge bills this latest winter from hell has accumulated. This is one of the more difficult manufacturers to find.