1851 brass Navy

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target
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1851 brass Navy

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Just got this and looking to shoot it. Lucked out and found balls, FFFG, #10 caps, bore butter, and a powder measure in the shop. So looks like I have everything I need. If I load this with 20 grains of FFFG will there be an air space that I need to take up or will the ball seat firmly on top of the powder?
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Darryl
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

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target wrote:Just got this and looking to shoot it. Lucked out and found balls, FFFG, #10 caps, bore butter, and a powder measure in the shop. So looks like I have everything I need. If I load this with 20 grains of FFFG will there be an air space that I need to take up or will the ball seat firmly on top of the powder?
Looks just like mine. You always seat the ball hard to the powder (or wad if you use one.) Never an air gap in Black Powder.

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Re: 1851 brass Navy

Post by target »

Yeah that much I know, I'm just curious if 20 grains will leave an air space or not. Also will fabric suffice to take up that air gap if there is one?
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

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target wrote:Yeah that much I know, I'm just curious if 20 grains will leave an air space or not. Also will fabric suffice to take up that air gap if there is one?
You just put in the powder, If you use a wad, then a wad next, then the ball. You seat the ball down to the bottom.....not air gap (if there is one)

So if you use less powder, the ball sits in the cylinder further down, if you use more powder, the ball sits further out towards the barrel.

If you are talking about a "air gap" in front of the ball (barrel side), that don't matter. But that ball has to sit all the way into the cylinder and not sick out or you have way too much powder!

I hope I was clear?????

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Re: 1851 brass Navy

Post by target »

well what I am asking is whether or not 20 grains will be sufficient and take up enough space so I won't have to use a wad before the bullet.

If that makes sense.

I'll probably just ball up a patch and stick it in there anyway. That way I know there is no air gap.
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

Post by Darryl »

target wrote:well what I am asking is whether or not 20 grains will be sufficient and take up enough space so I won't have to use a wad before the bullet.

If that makes sense.

I'll probably just ball up a patch and stick it in there anyway. That way I know there is no air gap.
Jim would know the charge for that pistol better than me.

But..... if 20 grains is what you are supposed to use...then you put it in and then the ball follows and sits hard on the powder. Then you would put bore butter or crisco on top of it.

The bore butter is to lube the bore as it goes down the barrel. It also helps keep the bore clean. It also helps stop fire from any of the other loads from getting to the powder and setting off more than one load. If you look at the barrel end of your cylinder and the pistols frame, you will notice that there is always a way for every load in that cylinder to "accidently" go off and exit the pistol without blowing the pistol up.

So, either you use bore butter on the top of the ball, or you use a wade between the powder and the ball. That is the reason for a wade, it is not to "adjust" any thing in the cylinder. It keeps fire (from another load going off) from getting to the powder in that load. It also lubes the barrel.

There is never any air gap between the powder and the wad, or the wade and the ball. No air gap ever. Everything tight. How far the ball sits in the cylinder is determined by the powder load. More powder and the ball sits closer to the end. Less powder and the ball sits further in the cylinder.

I haven't fired mine in a while now. I will look up the powder charge I use a little later. But Jim will know, I'm positive of that.he loves these things.
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

Post by Darryl »

Jim will chime in here soon.

I found the Colt Walker loads at 50 grains. But that brass framed Colt has to have much lighter loads than a steel frame Colt, not to even mention a Walker (much larger pistol).

I can't find my loads for my Brass Navy. :vconfused: :vconfused: :vconfused:

I'll keep looking. Here is mine
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

Post by tjtM38 »

I read through this whole thread but never saw what caliber or diameter ball you are planning to shoot. I have some experience with a Colt replica .36 Cal (.375 round ball) and I used 27 grains of FFFg which seated the ball firmly on the charge. The Ruger Old Army I used to have (.457 round ball) also shot well with 27 grains of FFFg, but I had to use a cornmeal filler to ensure the ball was seated firmly with no air space. Then I used Hodgdon Spit Ball grease lube patch on top of the ball to prevent chain fire. If I used a 40 grain charge with the Ruger, I could load the ball firmly on the powder with no filler, but I could never get very good accuracy out of the full power load.
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

Post by Darryl »

I assumed it was a.44 cal. and I shouldn't have donevthat.

I have never used cornmeal, cream of wheat, or fiber filler In any muzzel loader. Only in black powder cartrige firearms like my Snyder or Martini. There it is critical not to have any gaps and still maintain the overall length of the brass and lead.
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

Post by bunkysdad »

I think I understand you to mean will the plunger seat the ball deep enough over 20 grains so as not to have a air gap. I think it would but I have a book with the recommended loads. What did you say the brand and caliber was? It's a beautiful revolver by the way.
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

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I have a brace of these and shoot 25 grains of FFFG with a .454 round ball and a wonder wad under the powder. The steel frame version I will shoot at 30-35 grains, but brass is not near as strong and can shoot loose over time if you use full house loads. Pietta makes these as .44's despite the Navy name, it's their own creation, the revolver that Colt should have made back in the day but didn't. There are various fillers that you can use for a short load, cream 'o' wheat cereal poured in over the powder charge filling the chamber to just under the lip, then seat the ball on top, or polyester fiber, or wonder wads stacked as deep as you need them to take up the extra space. With 25 grains of FFF I find that only one wonder wad is needed to remove any possibility of air gap if you seat the ball firmly down on the powder. Some shooters like to raise the ball so it seats firm just inside the lip of the chamber. This may improve accuracy, but will require the cream 'o' wheat filler under the wonder wad, or at least three wads, maybe four. I shoot mine with real black powder, if you use a sub like Clean shot, Pyrodex, or 777 then reduce the charge to 22 grains and add a second wad or the filler as the sub powders work at slightly higher pressures. This is of no consequence in the steel frame revolvers, but matters to the brass ones. If you do not use wonder wads then remember to seal each chamber with bore butter , or Crisco to reduce the possibility of a chain fire.
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

Post by ponycarman »

Nice pistol! I shot mine for the first time a week or two ago. Mines a .44. I used 20gr of pyrodex and it did fine. Fun to shoot too :thumbsup:
Let me make a short, open, blanket comment. There are no good guns. There are no bad guns. Any gun in the hands of a bad man is a bad thing. Any gun in the hands of a descent person is no threat to anyone--- except bad people. -- Charleton Heston

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1943 Izhevsk
1937 Izhevsk
1935/48/50 Tula (hex)
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

Post by paul6892 »

Good Morning :!:

Very Nice Navy 1851 Brass Pistol :thumbsup: :Drool1:

If I may ask where did you buy it :?: :vcool:

Dixie Gun Works :?:
1. M39 Finn, 7.62x54mm 1944 Sako
2. M38, 7.62x54mm 1943 Izhevsk
3. M44, 7.62x54 mm 1945 Izhevsk
4. SKS, Russian, 7.62x39mm 1951 Tula
5. SKS Chinese #26, 7.62x39mm
6. SKS Chinese #316, 7.62x39mm
7. M48, Yugoslav, Mauser 8x57mm
8. Air Rifle .22, Beeman RS2

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Re: 1851 brass Navy

Post by target »

The balls are .451 so not as big as everyone recommends but its all I have for now so Ill just use bore butter over the chambers. I'll load it up and see what happens. Lots of good information in here so I feel pretty good to go.

I got this from a little mom and pop shop here in michigan. It came in a traditions box but is obviously Pietta.
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

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paul6892 wrote:Good Morning :!:

Very Nice Navy 1851 Brass Pistol :thumbsup: :Drool1:

If I may ask where did you buy it :?: :vcool:

Dixie Gun Works :?:
I don't know where he got his, but they have them at Dixie. But most of the guys are getting them from Cabela's. Take a look.
http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/search.c ... l+Products

You can buy them without any FFL involved. They will send them straight to your door.

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Re: 1851 brass Navy

Post by desdem12 »

20 gr should work but you might go higher. I would use the wads or something so you don't have a chain fire. The wads make it pretty easy and less messy. I think I have used 22 gr a couple of times before but mine are steel framed. Nice lookin pistol. :vcool: :vcool: :vcool:
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

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When you push the ball down into the chamber it needs to leave a nice clear ring of shaved lead behind as it goes in. If you do not see this ring then swap to .454, or .457's. This is very important as the ball needs to very tightly seal the chamber to avoid chain fires. I know some makers suggest a .451 size ball, but I have never use one smaller than a .454, and I tend to use .457's in all of them as well. The chamber sizes the bullet so don't worry about bore diameter, larger bullets can be harder to pack in, soft lead helps here, but they will seal the chambers as well as can be done.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

Post by desdem12 »

I also use .454 and always have. I have 2 44s a 58 and a 51 and use .454 in both. :D
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

Post by target »

I did shoot it, the .451 round balls did give me a ring around the chambers but I still topped each one with some bore butter. I ended up taking a wad of fabric and sitting that on top of 20 grains of FFFG then smooshing it all down. Kind of glad I decided to use a big wad of fabric because the bullets on top of the wads still sat pretty deep in the chambers. Used Remington #10 caps and besides a couple getting pulled off the nipples they worked great. Shot it 25 times and it was pretty pleasant. Accuracy at 20 yards was pretty good for just cobbling together a load, it did shoot high however by about 8 inches. Since I am not going to carry this or anything like that, I am content with just aiming low. Gonna have to get another one of these brass guns in .44 and then maybe a pair of the steel 1851s in .36 cal.

Thanks for the help guys.
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Re: 1851 brass Navy

Post by desdem12 »

If you slightly pinch the caps at the base before putting them on they will stay on better. Just a slight pinch between your fingers will do the trick. If they fall off they tend to fall right into the works and get in the way. :thumbsup:
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