Casing Issues - Ammo? Rifle? Dangerous?

[desertgunner]

Yeah, I checked the cyrillic signing, it definitely is classified as :guilding metal clad steel case , no doubt.
IMHO, I tend to believe there is an issue with the gun or it's primary cleaning.
Just because we got all the cosmoline out we think, does not cover the sight-hidden crevices .
Someone here already wrote about that....
Also, it might be a gun that slipped through the refurb, shot out. Or, it might have been reworked wrong.
Who knows?
I would be careful with it until a GS had put their "Safe" sign on it.

[desertgunner]

and that is not there? The bright ring? And it is common on steel?
With all due respect, sir, I'll move to Indiana and shoot the Question:
SHOW me!
We collect all our brass/steel for environmental purposes and check it before putting it where it is supposed to go.
We have shot I do not even know what fancy stuff and I never ran into a "Steel Cartridge Expansion on the Lock side", full stop.
So please show me....
I would not shoot this gun until OKed by a certified Gunsmith and then with a lot of cleaning all the time.

[Hombre]

......we have shot I do not even know what fancy stuff and I never ran into a "Steel Cartridge Expansion on the Lock side", full stop.
So please show me....
....

I have no idea what you are talking about

BTW Why would you move to Indiana to " shoot the question SHOW me"

[bunkysdad]

I suspect that the issue might be with wear in the chamber, possible throat erosion, as the split, and the carbon track through the crack looks so similar on most of the cases shown. As for the case stretch near the head, all of the cases that go through my Enfield No4 MkI have this look, but it passes headspace, albeit with a field guage. After more cleaning, and close inspection, I would want to try some modern, factory brass cased ammo like the PPU already mentioned, and after as many as 40 rounds a thorough inspection of the cases. Slowly enough so you don't super heat the whole works. Like a cars engine, normal operating temp, but not overheated.

[desertgunner]

I am talking about the last (fourth) picture in the first -initial- post on this thread with 2 shells showing an expansion ring near the head.
And I repeat I have not EVER seen this on steel cases before, only on brass shot out of an Enfield. Which did not happen again after a head check by a certified GS.
That gun should be checked thoroghly by a good GS before next live use. That's my take of this issue.Better safe than sorry.
Just my

[desertgunner]

Hombre,
the answer is 1. Indiana is the "Show Me " State , as I was told, years ago, so I was trying to be cautiously polite, and
2. I live in Californiaq, the State of the Fruits and Nuts. But , whatever you take out of this, I may be a Mosin-Nut, but never a fruit.
And now I am lying on the floor and laughing my 66 year old heart out.....let's just be friends, all.
The Mosinitis is hard enough to live with.....ROFL, still, OK?

[desertgunner]

Bunkysdad,....
I totally agree with the going forward posted by you.....I've seen the carbonisation marks in the same pattern, too. But did you see in the last picture how that effected the expansion? There is a difference between the 2 shells....small rapture, bigger expansion, et vice versa. So the chamber problem seems to be there....

[Hombre]

Ok, someone told you wrong - the SHOWME state is Missouri. I was born in Indiana and lived there til I was 17 so your statement puzzled me.

I understood what picture you were referring to but I still do not know what you meant by "never ran into a "Steel Cartridge Expansion on the Lock side", full stop". It is late and I am very tired so maybe I am too slow on the uptake.

I am all for being friends - nothing happening here to prevent that as far as I am concerned. Got to hit the sack now though.

[desertgunner]

Hombre,
I lift my hat and apologize for mistaking Indiana for Missouri....darn it.

My sons and I have shot "Hundreds" of steel cases out of quite a number of rifles eating surplus steel ammo.

And we never had a "cracked " throat or an expanded butt on any kind of steel ammo. On 7.62x51 Nato, .308,
30-06, 7.62x39 or 7.62x54r or even 8mm Mauser in brass.
Only one time in .303 brass.....and that was a head gauge problem.

Now I am hitting the sack, good night ye ' all out there

[zeebill]

Weldon I don't think that the Bulgarian I have is that old and will check later today. Even though it is said to be earlier than this stuff I think the dates are close. You know I am really wondering about this being maybe repacked in Bulgaria or something like that? Could the powers to be over there be that reflective on what we seek in surplus ammo to make this ammo more appealing to us by repacking it in new wrapping?

Some of you are seeing things on those cases that I don't like either. Time and a head space check may hear some of us out. Like I said I avoid the steel case stuff in Mosins but I do shoot it in semi's of Russian descent. I use a lot of Wolf steel cased and see no marks like what are on the ammo in question. Many of us do actively seek certain ammo and will complain about ammo miss'ID'd by sellers. I think the most complaints I hear are about Sportmans Guide or what ever it is called. They seem to run out of what they advertise and send anything along thinking to satisfy the customer with something even if it is the wrong stuff. I buy no ammo online period! Why well for the above reasons and also because all ammo sold online is logged somewhere as to where and who it went to. I see enough of Big Brother shoving its nose into my business so I avoid it here. Let's say I buy ammo in great amounts online it has got to set alarms off somewhere and I like to stay below the radar for the most part. What are the alternatives to online, in person bought on trips to big shows or business of another nature. Yeah you pay sales tax but for cash it is out the door and easy.

Man I am getting way off target here! For the time being I would set this rifle aside and wait for the head space guages and nose around to find someone who appears to know something about rifles and is in the Gunshop business and may be particularly Mosin knowledgable. Weldo I will try and brave the heat today and see what the dates are on my Bulgarian are. Ted's ammo primer on his sight is where I too would go for the final say on manufacturer and country so I for sure would not argue about what is marked on it. I guess time will tell us what we have here. Bill



PS What is written on that post about the ammo I would say it is Russian and that is why I question about it being repacked for some reason?

[Junk Yard Dog]

Sportsman's guide did substitute Turk 8mm for another type of 8mm on me years ago, but they did ask first as it was a phone order. I liked the Turk so much I ended up buying a truckload more from someplace.

[Hombre]

Hombre,
I lift my haed and apologize for mistaking Indiana for Missouri....darn it.

Well, it is going to take me a while to recuperate but I accept your apology.

I think the rather broad stretch marks near the web of the case are common in both brass and steel cases. It is due to the stretching near the stiff web. A narrow bright ring is what would indicate headspace problems.

I found this picture to show what I meant by a narrow bright ring although this one is much higher on the case.

separation_1.jpg

Next is three pictures of that shows 3 views of three cartridge cases posted by a reloader on snipershide.com

He said the case at the left was once fired and that it was “OK”. Notice that this case shows broad stretch marks similar to that in the OP’s picture. In the third picture he shows that there was no apparent damage to the wall of the case.

The one at the right was reloaded and fired two times. Note that the narrow separation line is above the broad area stretch marks and can be seen to be starting to form in the middle case (which was reloaded and fired once). The third picture shows the damage to the case wall. Maybe the OP could section his case and see if this kind of damage is apparent.

Also note that the broad stretch marks do not show very well viewed directly in front but show much more when viewed at an angle.

[Hombre]

Hombre,
My sons and I have shot "Hundreds" of steel cases out of quite a number of rifles eating surplus steel ammo.
And we never had a "cracked " throat or an expanded butt on any kind of steel ammo. On 7.62x51 Nato, .308,30-06, 7.62x39 or 7.62x54r or even 8mm Mauser in brass. Only one time in .303 brass.....and that was a head gauge problem.

Well lots of others have seen longitudinal splits at the “ throat” which I take it that you mean the neck and shoulder area. (To me the throat means the non-rifled area immediately forward of where the cartridge case sits in the chamber and occurs only in the rifle, not on the cartridge case.)

Here is one example that I recently saved IIRC from a post here at RMNF. Give me time and I can find many more. I have had them in both 7.62x54R and 8mm Mauser but threw them away.

Neck splits.jpg

[Spacecase]

Hombre,
My sons and I have shot "Hundreds" of steel cases out of quite a number of rifles eating surplus steel ammo.
And we never had a "cracked " throat or an expanded butt on any kind of steel ammo. On 7.62x51 Nato, .308,30-06, 7.62x39 or 7.62x54r or even 8mm Mauser in brass. Only one time in .303 brass.....and that was a head gauge problem.

Well lots of others have seen longitudinal splits at the “ throat” which I take it that you mean the neck and shoulder area. (To me the throat means the non-rifled area immediately forward of where the cartridge case sits in the chamber and occurs only in the rifle, not on the cartridge case.)

Here is one example that I recently saved IIRC from a post here at RMNF. Give me time and I can find many more.

Neck splits.jpg

Pardon my ignorance or lack of understanding, Hombre, but what conclusion are you reaching? That the split cases are NOT the result of headspace issues?

[Hombre]

Pardon my ignorance or lack of understanding, Hombre, but what conclusion are you reaching? That the split cases are NOT the result of headspace issues?

Yes that is my belief for the longitudinal splits at the neck and shoulder. I base that partially on my knowedge of how pressurized cylinders are stressed and how they fail. I was a design mechanical engineer and spent much of my career calculating stresses and strains due to the loads imposed by pressure.

Basiclly longitudinal splits are caused by hoop stress which occurs when the case is forced radially outward - and this would occur whether excessive headspace was present or not.

Excessive head space would cause the case (usually near the head) to be excessively stretched long wise - which would cause a circumferental crack. (Failure lines in cylinders are always perpendicular to the direction of applied stress.)

There will always be some stretching in this area thus the possibility of seeing the broad non-critical stetch marks.

[Spacecase]

Pardon my ignorance or lack of understanding, Hombre, but what conclusion are you reaching? That the split cases are NOT the result of headspace issues?

Yes that is my belief for the longitudinal splits at the neck and shoulder. I base that partially on my knowedge of how pressurized cylinders are stressed and how they fail. I was a design mechanical engineer and spent much of my career calculating stresses and strains due to the loads imposed by pressure.

Basiclly longitudinal splits are caused by hoop stress which occurs when the case is forced radially outward - and this would occur whether excessive headspace was present or not.

Excessive head space would cause the case (usually near the head) to be excessively stretched long wise - which would cause a circumferental crack. (Failure lines in cylinders are always perpendicular to the direction of applied stress.)

There will always be some stretching in this area thus the possibility of seeing the broad non-critical stetch marks.

Based on this, would you favor the conclusion that these cracks were most likely caused by throat erosion, or other factors affecting casing support?

[Hombre]

Based on this, would you favor the conclusion that these cracks were most likely caused by throat erosion, or other factors affecting casing support?

I would not think it is due to throat erosion because as I said, to me the throat means the non-rifled area immediately forward of where the cartridge case sits in the chamber. The area of the chamber covered by the cartridge case is protected pretty much from erosion, by the case. (Erosion is caused by hot gases rushing over a surface.)

It could be caused by an oversized chamber but I think your split is due to a bad case.

[Spacecase]

Based on this, would you favor the conclusion that these cracks were most likely caused by throat erosion, or other factors affecting casing support?

I would not think it is due to throat erosion because as I said, to me the throat means the non-rifled area immediately forward of where the cartridge case sits in the chamber. The area of the chamber covered by the cartridge case is protected pretty much from erosion by the case. (Erosion is caused by hot gases rushing over a surface.)

It could be caused by an oversized chamber but I think your split is due to a bad case.

I see. And that makes sense, since most of the casings did not suffer such a fate; I kept 14 or 15 empty casings from this first range shoot and only 4 of them showed any splitting. The ones in the photos are the worst, the other two have very minor cracks which do not go through like the major one does. I wish I'd noticed this while I was shooting; I'd sure like to know if that major failed case was among the first shots.

Thank you for your advice. I am definitely going to have my GS look at it before I fire it again.

[desertgunner]

This is what I mean:

DSCF2208rrr.jpg

These girls have hardly ever seen brass, only steel, mostly from Russia:
Military Surplus(a lot), Ishevsk commercial, Barnaul commercial, PPU, S&B ,Herters, RUAG....to name a few that come to mind.
And their heads are right, the bores shiny and the performance, olala
It just pays to show them the love

Enough said, gotta go to work some time to save for a new girl....

[Hombre]

...... I wish I'd noticed this while I was shooting; I'd sure like to know if that major failed case was among the first shots.

The chamber is smaller when cold and grows in diameter as it heats up. So if the case is going to split due to temperature changing the chamber size, it will more likely do so when the rifle is hot.