Classic has M38s

[Darryl]

edit...I went back to the original ad. The actual language is "arsenal refinished by Molot". So which is it, are they arsenal refinished, or refinished by Molot. To me, thats just sloppy semantics by the guy that posted up the description...we need a few of you experts to lay eyes and hands on the actual items in question. But yeah, I'd like to know what Molot says they are.

That is the problem isn't it? To me they are saying that Molot refinished them.

If that is true, I have a problem with them.

If it is untrue and Molot is just importing them, then they are another refurbish M38. No problem.

But in the past, Molot is not an importer into the US, they just handled these rifles from the Arsenals to the importer here in the US. So what is their part in this?

In my mind, they clearly had a part in the sniper rifles especially the "re-stamping" to match numbers. That is modern fonts, unlike they ever used back when the refurbs were.... "refurbed". So I am asking the questions. I do not trust anything handled by Molot. But that is me. I just like to stay away from any potential troubles.

But the questions have to be asked, (and not ignored by Molot or the importers).

Dolk

[Darryl]

Sorry, I have got to go back to work! (don't you just hate it when work get in the way?)

I'll let you guys discuss this for now.

Dolk

[optikalillushun]

This is quite interesting, Sounds to me like Molot refinishes these rifles...not makes these (in question). But they do make new versions of the 91/30 and SKS from what i seen and they make the Ukranian Vepr rifles...Didnt know Michells Mausers was like that...good thing i didnt plan to give em any business

[Rongo]

Every rifle MOLOT ships is refinished by them, a commercial company, not a military arsenal. They have to refinish them, re-classify them as a hunting rifle & are advertised as a hunting rifle, not a military surplus rifle. Therefore they are not Military Surplus, period. It's official & clear as crystal. They do this solely to bypass the loophole they exposed so to ship them here that has to be fact. They will not admit anything but... Business depends on that to be true for all intents & purposes.

So a gun that is signed off & documented as refinished by a comercial company IS NOT A MILSURP any longer. Debate over whether we like it or not.

It's a cryin' shame too.

[redeuce]

What I don't understand is- Molot has been around a long time as a "maker" of firearms. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think they have been involved with Mosins since the late 90's. Why are we all of a sudden seeing this large influx of Molot inventory? I personally wouldn't touch anything with a Molot stamp on it. When something has to have a long story to explain what it is, it becomes gray area. The Classic description explaining what the rifle and scope are for the snipers is about 4 paragraphs long................no thanks. With a little research and patience, M44, M38, snipers, etc can be found and purchased. I have no interest in buying any of these Molot "offerings", with all there obnoxious stamps and a questionable history.

[mosinjunkie]

...I went back to the original ad. The actual language is "arsenal refinished by Molot". So which is it, are they arsenal refinished, or refinished by Molot. To me, thats just sloppy semantics by the guy that posted up the description...we need a few of you experts to lay eyes and hands on the actual items in question. But yeah, I'd like to know what Molot says they are.

In the past, Classic has offered chrome plated Tokarev pistols, and hex receiver PU sniper rifles. (If you don't understand that, read up on it.) They are NOT genuine milsurp weapons. No. They are butchered sanitized humped shooters cobbled up from genuine milsurp weapons. Classic's description is not "sloppy semantics", it's typical Classic sales spiel.

If you think that a Molot rifle is a legitimate genuine arsenal refurbed rifle, and that you must have one of them, then buy one. You are likely not going to convince anyone here that they are tho.

[MarksmanTim]

Forgive my potential ignorance, but I have a few questions/theories to pose:

Is it true that no military weapons are legal to import to the USA from Russia? Or is it no semiautomatic weapons?

The theory I was operating on with the M44's is that Molot received (paid for, was given, I don't know) these weapons from the Russian Government. These weapons were stored inside the borders of Russia itself, making them illegal to sell to the USA in their current form. Russian government sells to private company that is a manufacturer. This manufacturer claims to "rebuild" them into "hunting rifles", which are then legal (ONLY MY THEORY, MIGHT NOT BE FACT) to import.

Given that most of us don't trust Ivan, it makes sense that all they are doing is stripping most of the grease, applying their stamp to the required parts by law, packaging them up and shipping em' out. Why would they do any more to them than necessary to make them legal to import? As stated, we know they want to make a quick buck, which isn't exactly what Mitchells Mauser's business model is.

Since I actually purchased an M44 with a Molot stamp on it, I can say with strong certainty that the carbine has all signs of an old refurb sans the new "Molot" markings. Why would there be grease in/on the stock if it was a fresh rebuild? Why would there be old grease remnants/stains in tight crevices if it was just reblued? They certainly wouldn't go through the process of refurbing a rifle/carbine, hot dunk it in grease, let it dry for a day and then go through a process of removing the heavy grease to make it ready to ship? It's cheaper and easier to just oil it if they were concerned with rust prevention. (short term for shipping)

The angle of attack should be more about loop holes rather than refurbishment. I think if more research is to be done, it should be on the legalities of importing from Molot's location. It is probably easier to obtain factual information that way, and deduce realistic explanations from these facts rather than speculation.

[MarksmanTim]

Every rifle MOLOT ships is refinished by them, a commercial company, not a military arsenal. They have to refinish them, re-classify them as a hunting rifle & are advertised as a hunting rifle, not a military surplus rifle. Therefore they are not Military Surplus, period. It's official & clear as crystal. They do this solely to bypass the loophole they exposed so to ship them here that has to be fact. They will not admit anything but... Business depends on that to be true for all intents & purposes.

So a gun that is signed off & documented as refinished by a comercial company IS NOT A MILSURP any longer. Debate over whether we like it or not.

It's a cryin' shame too.

whoops. looks like a few more posts have come up since I started typing my response. This worky thing got in the way of posting when I originally started typing.

[JayPoc]

...I went back to the original ad. The actual language is "arsenal refinished by Molot". So which is it, are they arsenal refinished, or refinished by Molot. To me, thats just sloppy semantics by the guy that posted up the description...we need a few of you experts to lay eyes and hands on the actual items in question. But yeah, I'd like to know what Molot says they are.

In the past, Classic has offered chrome plated Tokarev pistols, and hex receiver PU sniper rifles. (If you don't understand that, read up on it.) They are NOT genuine milsurp weapons. No. They are butchered sanitized humped shooters cobbled up from genuine milsurp weapons. Classic's description is not "sloppy semantics", it's typical Classic sales spiel.

If you think that a Molot rifle is a legitimate genuine arsenal refurbed rifle, and that you must have one of them, then buy one. You are likely not going to convince anyone here that they are tho.

So, if they are for all intents and purposes the EXACT same refurb someone might have gotten 10 years ago through CIA or the likes, and the only difference is that Molot wiped them with a rag and put their stamp on it to loophole their way around some new regs, thats a deal breaker for you? That would not for me. To me, they're the exact same rifle, only imported a bit differently to skirt some rules. I would consider that to be no more or less "legit" than any other refurbed m38.

On the other hand, if they were stripping these things down, rebluing the metal, refinishing the stocks, making "new" rifles from parts, etc., that WOULD be a deal breaker for me.

Based on the reports from all those that bought the m44s, and based on the pictures that I've seen of these m38s, it really looks like the former is happening here, not the latter...

In other owrds, if they're only "fake" refinishing them to skirt the law, its a legit m38 in my book...if they're doing a genuine 2013 reworking of these things, then they're not...

[Darryl]

Speculation is what everyone here is doing, including me. I'm just going off of what the seller is saying. That is more than any one else has at the present time.

Without Molots cooperation and a precise explanation of what they are doing (and they are refusing requests at present time), then you have to trust them. If you would like to "trust" a company that refuses to even respond to you, that is your business. But without that response, I will always assume they are trying to hide something. So, yes, I will avoid them (personally,..... not the forums necessarily)

But you have to decide that for yourself. I'm not trying to encourage you or block you from making that decision. I'm just trying to get some answers. That is my job as co-owner of this forum. But it seems like everyone (other than here) is willing to turn a blind eye to this situation so they can get a M38.

For me, I hope they are a bunch of real "arsenal refurbished" M38's. Why would that bother me? The more the merrier. I might even pick one up (as if I needed another). But I do not want any "new Members" thinking we are backing them as OK because we allow them on here, then "pull the rug out from under them" later and tell them they are not allowed. How do you think they would feel if they bought one thinking it was OK (by us), then we reject it? I suspect they would be ticked.

It is important we ask these questions and not just go blindly on. We are not trying to block these rifles, we are asking the questions we should to get it right for the forums.(or as good as we can)

Dolk

[mosinjunkie]

I'm sure a few members here have ordered some of the rifles in question. Maybe we'll get an up-close look at some of them.

[JayPoc]

I know several here have bought some of the Molot M44s. Perhaps we could have a new thread for photos of said m44s? It seems at the time of their posting, they were all well recieved...

[JayPoc]

Got a reply to my e-mail from Rick at Classic...take it for what its worth/grain of salt etc. But he said Molot's role in bringing these to market was:

"cleaning up, boxing, and exporting"

I don't know this guy from Adam, but thats his take, at least...

[Darryl]

"cleaning up, boxing, and exporting"

I understand boxing and exporting, and that is not really and issue.

What does "cleaning up" mean?

Why did he first say "refinished by"?

Dolk

[Rongo]

"cleaning up, boxing, and exporting"

I understand boxing and exporting, and that is not really and issue.

What does "cleaning up" mean?

Why did he first say "refinished by"?

Dolk

Just my personal opinion here, but I think It's whatever they want it to be. I would imagine they are shipping the best ones that really need much of nothing. Based from what I saw from the last batch of M44's most where prefix matching, clean & sharp, excellent condition refurbs with the MOLOT stamps. The big question comes when they eventually get down to the rough, mismatched, shellac flaked ones after all the nice ones are sold; What then??? And who can say if they find some stamping dies along the way too? Maybe start stamping East German, MO, [SA] & who knows what else & get a premium??? Kind of like the Mitchell's "Death Head" stamped Mausers?? Please...

Just too dang many questions & little to no answers.

[WeldonHunter]

"Arsenal Refinished by Molot",.........Is that like Michell's does to Mausers?

Last I knew Molot was not an "Arsenal". They are just a company like Mitchell's is.

I started to put these on gun-deals then I saw that in the description. I hit the brakes real fast. I'm still being reserved in how I say this but it sure does call into question the authenticity of anything Molot has sold lately.

[Rongo]

"Arsenal Refinished by Molot",.........Is that like Michell's does to Mausers?

Last I knew Molot was not an "Arsenal". They are just a company like Mitchell's is.

I started to put these on gun-deals then I saw that in the description. I hit the brakes real fast. I'm still being reserved in how I say this but it sure does call into question the authenticity of anything they've sold lately.

Thus the core of our dilemma.

[desdem12]

Couple that with classic and it is a double dilemma. Where you been Weldon?

[WeldonHunter]

"Arsenal Refinished by Molot",.........Is that like Michell's does to Mausers?

Last I knew Molot was not an "Arsenal". They are just a company like Mitchell's is.

I started to put these on gun-deals then I saw that in the description. I hit the brakes real fast. I'm still being reserved in how I say this but it sure does call into question the authenticity of anything they've sold lately.

Thus the core of our dilemma.

Yeah I know Ron and that's what's pissing me off with all this. To many cloudy areas and the waters are not getting any clearer. Since the beginning I've been an advocate that we keep an open mind about the PU snipers from Molot. This forum makes me proud with the open minded view to search for the truth about those rifles. That's what we should do in regards to any rifle's history. It's why we do this. Real military history. There are to may unanswered questions that we as collectors need to know the truth about. Now M44s with bayonets removed, then these M38s out of the blue. To many people accept these rifles with vague explainations about their chain of custody and state of authenticity as military surplus weapons.

I have the one Molot rifle, the PU I got from AIM last July. I don't regret buying it. It's a fun rifle to shoot but until I see different it'll always be represented to anyone who asks about it as a rifle I'm not sure about how it came to be and is most likely a rebuilt rifle and not a true arsenal refurbished rifle. It's makes a huge difference and anyone who dismisses that difference should rethink what it means to collect military surplus weapons. It's actually real simple. If it was done by a state sponsored military arsenal it's the real deal. If it was done by anyone else it's not a military surplus weapon on the whole.

Now one last thing that adds to it is the description that Classic Arms makes which is most likely based in truth. They do have a habit of embelishing the descriptions on what they sell though. Most times to the extent they look like a used car salesman like you see in the bad part of town. The Bulgarian 7.62x54R ammo they're selling right now with the description it's "Sniper Grade" when it most certainly is not comes to mind. That said for them to claim Molot "arsenal refinished" these could be an embelishment but with everything else I see about Molot I'd say it's closer to the truth than not. The evidence is stacking up more and more that Molot is simply putting rifles together most likely from the last parts of what's left of the Mosin Nagant stores. I'll keep an open mind but it's hard to think otherwise right now. One good thing is they are putting the Molot logo on them. At least we'll always know which ones they are good or bad.

[bocephus]

Every M44 from AIMs last batch was a molot right? I assume Wideners too, plenty of pics of those in the forum right now. Looks like any new batch of anything that comes up for the foreseeable future will be a molot.