Headspace guages and safety

[lonewolf]

how do you or can you fix a no go?

[desdem12]

For mosins and enfields you swap the bolt heads arouond till you get ine that will pass the test.

[lonewolf]

what about an m1 garand/

[zeebill]

Is this it Bill? http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/

Yeah that's one of them but I read another one that went even farther into the years and such still can't get this old piece of junk to work and I have been busy as heck trying to get a new roof on the shop and avoid the thunderstorms we are having now. Thanks! Bill

[zeebill]

Zeebill, you said I need to read more about 03's... and I say you need to read my post more slowly.
I specifically stated that it WAS documented in early Enfields and early Springfields. No argument or differing opinion there.

And I would certainly not treat headspace issues lightly, just not as significant an issue as what some (half) make out. Kind of like walking across the road to your mailbox. You just never know.

What I am referring to is there really may not have been heat treating problems that in the final analysis the problem may have been the ammo they tried to use. Sure years later they said heat treat problems but for how many and how many in relation to that did other rifles have? Probably similar in number for millions of rifles made I would bet and no I am not going to try and get into numbers for comparison of other rifles. Too old I would never finish it! The article Weldon posted has some of the inferences noted but I have another in mind that uses that post and others along with further numbers to point the real problem out. Injury from 03's included a couple of serious ones that were successfully swept under the carpet so as not to influence the war effort. How many other rifles had similar injuries of a serious nature I really don't know but I would bet they are out there. Bill

[tjtM38]

what about an m1 garand/

I suggest you take it to a qualified gunsmith, but only if you think there is a problem with it. If you have fired it; don't see any abnormal fired cases (bulged, etc.) and the gun functions well, I don't think you have a problem.

[pacanis]

Besides visually inspecting the fired shell for stretching, and measuring it, the LGS also gave me another test for the casing. He straightened part of a paperclip out and put a 90 degree bend on one leg about 1/16" long. You use it to see if the fired shell has failed inside where you can't see it by dragging the bent leg along the inside and seeing if it hangs up on anything. Just one more test.

[Junk Yard Dog]

For the M1 Garand you call Brownells, or Midway and order the headspace gauge set, or just the No/Go for .30-06, remove the Garand bolts extractor, and test the headspace. DO NOT SLAM THE BOLT FORWARD on the gauge, but gently lower it to feel for resistance. If the bolt closes then you could try bolt swaps, but as Garand bolts are expensive this could run to some money. Anything past bolt swaps you will need an armorer for.

[WeldonHunter]

For the M1 Garand you call Brownells, or Midway and order the headspace gauge set, or just the No/Go for .30-06, remove the Garand bolts extractor, and test the headspace. DO NOT SLAM THE BOLT FORWARD on the gauge, but gently lower it to feel for resistance. If the bolt closes then you could try bolt swaps, but as Garand bolts are expensive this could run to some money. Anything past bolt swaps you will need an armorer for.

Yeah I was thinking about picking up a spare bolt myself for my Garand. It's kind of the heart of the gun besides the op rod spring. I haven't really looked around much but noticed Cope's Dist. has complete bolts SA marked tha are in good to excellant conditon for $44.99. They have others too. I know where others are but don't remember what they cost but I thought heck $44.99 isn't to awful bad. Just wonder what the quality is.

[mackelroy]

First thing I did after getting my Mosin was buy a no go gauge from Okie. My reasoning was this: Sure, the odds are probably overwhelmingly in favor of my rifle not having headspace issues. But on the odd chance that it might be one that has problems, it was well worth the $26 for peace of mind.

Even if people are firing them with bad headspace and having no issues, you have to know that headspace is of concern to gun builders/gunsmiths and measured for a reason. Why chance it? If you happen to be the ONE person who finds himself seriously injured due to firing a Mosin with improper headspace, are you still going to say "half of all shooters don't believe it's an issue," or "I've never seen anyone injured by a poorly headspaced Mosin," or are you going to think, "damn, for $26 i could have avoided this"? That's assuming, of course, you'd still have the luxury of thinking at all.

[lonewolf]

tjtM38

when the case comes out it is bent down it look like the top of the case is hiting the receiver when it is Ejecting

[lonewolf]

it looks like this idk why

http://media.photobucket.com/image/rece ... G_2127.jpg

[WeldonHunter]

First thing I did after getting my Mosin was buy a no go gauge from Okie. My reasoning was this: Sure, the odds are probably overwhelmingly in favor of my rifle not having headspace issues. But on the odd chance that it might be one that has problems, it was well worth the $26 for peace of mind.

Even if people are firing them with bad headspace and having no issues, you have to know that headspace is of concern to gun builders/gunsmiths and measured for a reason. Why chance it? If you happen to be the ONE person who finds himself seriously injured due to firing a Mosin with improper headspace, are you still going to say "half of all shooters don't believe it's an issue," or "I've never seen anyone injured by a poorly headspaced Mosin," or are you going to think, "damn, for $26 i could have avoided this"? That's assuming, of course, you'd still have the luxury of thinking at all.

Yeah that's my thinking. Keep in mind though just because you've checked headspace doesn't mean all's well. It's only one step towards making sure the gun is safe. Nothing is a substitute for a well trained gunsmith. I've been shooting for over 30 years but am only recently learning the things you need to know about using firearms. Especially milsurp weapons. I've had mostly modern firearms and they tend to have less issues with mechanical problems although I did have to return a Mossberg 500 because the extractor was rubbing the receiver. The guy at Big 5 told me "Oh you just need to shoot it and break it in" Yeah right. Look I'm not gunsmith but I am a mechanic and I know something new like a firearms shoulf function flawlessly. Especially a rubbing extractor. He exchanged the shotgun. The new one did not rub.

[WeldonHunter]

it looks like this idk why

http://media.photobucket.com/image/rece ... G_2127.jpg

Are we talking about the Garand here?

[lonewolf]

yes an m1 garand a sa 1942 m1

[WeldonHunter]

yes an m1 garand a sa 1942 m1

I'm just learning the ins and outs of Garands so keep that in mind. I don't know what would cause that type if damage unless the spent rounds are staying in the bolt instead of ejecting and are trying to go back into the chamber. They're either being slammed into the reveiver or chamber because they didn't clear the gun on the ejection cycle. That's what it looks like to me.

[lonewolf]

i dont know but i hope it can be fixed.

[MNMose]

Great thread. I recently bought an 8x57 Mauser No Go gauge as my Mauser collection had grown to 4. All my guns passed. Now that I see the mosin receiver failure, I wonder if that's why the turkmauser forum suggested Gewehr 88 rebuilds might not be shooters. They were rebarreled but, the receivers were not designed for 8 MM Mauser round. My grandfather-in-law had no problems shooting it but, I always wear safety glasses and inspect cartridges after firing from all my refurbs.

In an early post to this thread, there was a quote (I paraphrase) that these military rifles have been tested to much higher pressures. I forget the comparison now but, I wouldn't take the value of any exceptional testing for granted. 8 mm has gone through several variations and loadings and Turk Mauser refurbs were performed on a hodge podge of guns. I have read that post-WWII 8 mm Mauser sporting ammunition was manufactured with a reduced charge to compensate for some users loading modern ammo in older guns.

Other variations of guns have similar generational changes. As far as more uniform types like the Mosin Nagant weapons, a post I read on the old forum pointed out that the post-WWII refurbishers may not have all been willing employees of the refurbishing armories. During the war, as people seem to accept with Japanese WWII milsurps, some of these weapons were produced within the sound of guns. So, aside from geeking out on all the various little pieces, dates and stamps you find when completely disassembling a new milsurp, a complete inspection is very important.

That all being said, did anyone see the Sons of Guns episode when they tested out the previously de-milled Lahti L-39 20 mm anti-tank weapon with the long string approach. Cool gun but, not me brother!

[WeldonHunter]

i dont know but i hope it can be fixed.

Right now I'm having a few rounds either stovepiping on ejection or aren't feeding and stovepiping. I had one when I first starting using this gun that bent the projectile and the last time had one slam a new round so hard on feeding it dented the case at the neck big enough you could almost sit a pea in the dent. I'm replacing the Op rod spring at Sgt Robs suggestion with an Orion 7 Stainless Steel spring. As a matter of fact I'm ordering that and some other stuff in a little while today. We'll see how that helps out. Every gun has it's own problems and if you're not sure about how to work on these guns find a gunsmith that knows Garands and have him look to it. I'd ask around first though. Some guys might tell you they know them but might end up costing you a lot of money and not fix the rifle.

Edit:
All that said I have yet to do a detail strip of this weapon and I know it's going to be a chore. I do have a video with Larry Shields doing the strip down and have watched it once. These guns have a lot parts and if you plan on doing a detail strip I highly rcommend getting this video and watching it. http://store.ontargetvideos.com/M1-Garand_p_20.html It's just a detail strip and cleaning and doesn't go into checking parts for wear very deep so it's not going to help diagnois problems but it's very helpful in knowing how to disassembling and reassembling these rifles.

[lonewolf]

i can work on them i rebult one m1 befor an it is no problem