Classic has M38s

[Darryl]

Sporting rifles are legally importable from Russia, milsurp Mosins are not, and the BATFE isn't totally stupid, something would have had to be legitimately done to these milsurps before they would meet US qualifications for import as a sporting rifle. Exactly what that was we don't have all the information on yet, but Molot does call these rifle's "hunting rifles " and they do stamp their company logo on them.

This is what I want to know, what is the change that makes them into a sporting rifle?

very good question. They won't say!

Dolk

[Junk Yard Dog]

Sporting rifles are legally importable from Russia, milsurp Mosins are not, and the BATFE isn't totally stupid, something would have had to be legitimately done to these milsurps before they would meet US qualifications for import as a sporting rifle. Exactly what that was we don't have all the information on yet, but Molot does call these rifle's "hunting rifles " and they do stamp their company logo on them.

This is what I want to know, what is the change that makes them into a sporting rifle?

That may be between MOLOT and the Feds and we may never know.

If you want my theory, and that's all it as as I have no more information that anybody else here, I can give that. I think they acquired either entire rifles from Russian government sources or parts of rifles. I think they stripped and refinished them, then built them into "new" rifles and stamped them with various markings and serial numbers. I think they probably added some small new made part, or parts, maybe an extractor, or some screws, pins, that sort of thing so they could convince the US BATFE to allow them for import directly from Russia. This is the Obama administrations BATFE, they didn't just lift the ban because they love guns and US gun owners so much they felt we should have them..Molot had to work to get these here, you can bet on it. That however is just my own theory.

[JayPoc]

This is what I want to know, what is the change that makes them into a sporting rifle?

From all appearances, with these m44s and m38s, absolutely nothing other than slapping on their mark. Unfortunately, they've apparently blurred the line on other items in the past, which puts anything they touch in doubt...

Here's a great (I think) analogy. We inherited and old autograph book from the 40s and 50s from my deceased father in law. This autograph book has a number of obviously legit signatures from big stars. Unfortunately, there are a couple of autographs in there that are clearly not what they are purported to be. So then, how do you handle the apparently legit Bing Crosby when the Sinatra is totally bogus?

[desdem12]

i am so confused from all the postings about the M38 and M44's. I ordered an M44 from Wideners and cancelled the order. Then I ordered an M38 from Classic Arms. I'm going to stick with the "M38" whether it is real or not. I have wanted one for a while now. I am going to enjoy it regardless of whether it is real or not. When I am dead and gone it won't matter. I am 70 years old and know that I have several real rare Finns and great 91/30's to leave my son and grandsonsim t4h e

In the end you have to decide which and what. In the very least they are representative of a Russian carbine. I would echo buckeyes thoughts on this and in fact this is how I thought of them from the start. There are the molots, and the non molots. The question will be answered by the people as far as price and collectability but the fact that the others are known true artifacts makes a difference to me at least. Would I get one? Not if I could get a non molot.

[Longcolt44]

That's easy. Just be honest when you sell it.

[Junk Yard Dog]

This is what I want to know, what is the change that makes them into a sporting rifle?

From all appearances, with these m44s and m38s, absolutely nothing other than slapping on their mark. Unfortunately, they've apparently blurred the line on other items in the past, which puts anything they touch in doubt...

Here's a great (I think) analogy. We inherited and old autograph book from the 40s and 50s from my deceased father in law. This autograph book has a number of obviously legit signatures from big stars. Unfortunately, there are a couple of autographs in there that are clearly not what they are purported to be. So then, how do you handle the apparently legit Bing Crosby when the Sinatra is totally bogus?

Cut out the real ones and sell them to collectors, dump the fakes, I have Bings autograph up on my wall for many years.

[JayPoc]

This is what I want to know, what is the change that makes them into a sporting rifle?

From all appearances, with these m44s and m38s, absolutely nothing other than slapping on their mark. Unfortunately, they've apparently blurred the line on other items in the past, which puts anything they touch in doubt...

Here's a great (I think) analogy. We inherited and old autograph book from the 40s and 50s from my deceased father in law. This autograph book has a number of obviously legit signatures from big stars. Unfortunately, there are a couple of autographs in there that are clearly not what they are purported to be. So then, how do you handle the apparently legit Bing Crosby when the Sinatra is totally bogus?

Cut out the real ones and sell them to collectors, dump the fakes, I have Bings autograph up on my wall for many years.

What will you give me for a fake Jane Wyman?

[wolfstein]

I really like this forum. It is purist and am glad everyone is concerned about keeping it that way. I have other guns, mostly pistols , that have nothing to do with this forum. I also have several MN's that I really enjoy and learn a great deal from this forum. Whatever is decided, if anything is ok with me. I will enjoy my new "M38" for whatever it is, as it will still be a piece of history. You could cut my arm off, but I will still be me.
"

[Junk Yard Dog]

.

What will you give me for a fake Jane Wyman?[/quote]
A fake Betty White

[desdem12]

It may be decided that they did just clean them up. I would not put down any one or the rifle, as it was not easy for me to get any m38s and that was a while ago. We all are just hoping that molot has left them pure for the sake of all of us who love these rifles and the history associated with them. If the history was sanitized then that is a damn shame. They are still Russian m38s but what else. As has been said if you are familiar with mitchels then molot is the mitchels of Russia. That is not saying they did mess them but who knows if they didn't either. I would not worry about it. It is a Russian m38....They are sure as heck fun to shoot and have a great feel and fireball to them.

[redeuce]

There is no gray area in this argument. There is no compromise. There are only 2 possibilities- There is one group of Mosin enthusiasts that believe out of nowhere, a whole cache of previously unknown, impeccably refurbished M44's, M38's, Snipers, and who knows what else was sitting in surplus storage, unable to move because of import laws. Along came Molot, a subsidiary of Izmash, who struck a deal. They then uncrated all these rifles, wiped them off with a rag, stamped them, boxed them, and sent them out for retail sale. The other group, which I am a member, believes the Russians were trying to figure a way to capitalize on surplus fever, had a cache of good rifles, bad rifles, and a shitload of arsenal parts. They shipped them to Molot, who "refurbished or refinished" these rifles.This served 2 purposes- provided a way to make money from a bunch of useless firearms, and a way to employ people. Everyone must decide which side of the fence they are on.

The red flags that I see are simple-1) Molot has been around since the 40's, yet no one knows anything about them or what they are doing.2) Almost every shipment of milsurp weapons in the past had an origin, a chain of possession, or at least a pretty good idea where the weapons came from. The Molots are a mystery. 3) Someone knows the story on these rifles, either refurbisher, importer, dealer, etc. yet no one, when asked, will give an answer. Evidently Molot has been contacted, to no avail. It was posted on another board that Classic was called and quized- the answer was " All we know is what is posted on the internet" 4) The price- The genuine snipers were selling for $800. All of a sudden, there are genuine authentic snipers for $599. Going rate for M44's and M38s is $250- $275. All of a sudden M44's are $199 and M38's are $219, or whatever. Hello, the dealers decided everyone is so nice that they will slash the prices to be fair.

Add it up, and something stinks. I think the reason they are cheap is the importer and dealers know there is a problem, and they figure at that price no one will complain. It is also apparent that the biggest support for Molot are the guys that bought the $599 specials, and a forum who's 2 main sponsors are AIM and Classic.
I was basically attacked on a board about my stupidity because I had the gall to even question Molot.

Maybe the situation will become clear, but with no cooperation from importer, dealer, or Molot, I doubt it. To me, that means there will always be a question about these.

[redeuce]

Not to drone on, but I have a question for JYD and Dolk. I was blasted by someone because I said there is a difference between the R Guns and Molot snipers. He basically said he was a sniper expert and I was an idiot. He said they are exactly the same. So I went to PM with him and asked if he ever saw the 2 together in person. I have. Looked at the fonts on both rifles, and they don't look the same, in fact the Molots look like a fresh stamp done by another method than the others. Then he said I was really an idiot. Am I an idiot?

[desdem12]

Maybe, but you are our idiot. I doubt you are. Reason dictates questions at least to me, therefore reasons dictate I am an idiot also.

[BuckeyeSgt]

Not to drone on, but I have a question for JYD and Dolk. I was blasted by someone because I said there is a difference between the R Guns and Molot snipers. He basically said he was a sniper expert and I was an idiot. He said they are exactly the same. So I went to PM with him and asked if he ever saw the 2 together in person. I have. Looked at the fonts on both rifles, and they don't look the same, in fact the Molots look like a fresh stamp done by another method than the others. Then he said I was really an idiot. Am I an idiot?

I don't think so, they were talking about the fonts and markings on Tulas that shouldn't have been there somewhere in this thread.

You had some pretty valid observations in both posts.

[BuckeyeSgt]

Maybe, but you are our idiot. I doubt you are. Reason dictates questions at least to me, therefore reasons dictate I am an idiot also.

Hhmm, where do I take this one Brad??

[desdem12]

I believe the last shot was mine, so have at it Drew!

[Darryl]

Maybe, but you are our idiot. I doubt you are. Reason dictates questions at least to me, therefore reasons dictate I am an idiot also.

Hhmm, where do I take this one Brad??

I wouldn't go there if I were you. let it go!

[Darryl]

Not to drone on, but I have a question for JYD and Dolk. I was blasted by someone because I said there is a difference between the R Guns and Molot snipers. He basically said he was a sniper expert and I was an idiot. He said they are exactly the same. So I went to PM with him and asked if he ever saw the 2 together in person. I have. Looked at the fonts on both rifles, and they don't look the same, in fact the Molots look like a fresh stamp done by another method than the others. Then he said I was really an idiot. Am I an idiot?

You're not an idiot. And I'd love to know what his name is (maybe PM me, not here). I would trust Vic as one, but most of them have come up in the last few years and really have very little experience. Oh, they have a sniper or two, but that don't make you an expert. I'd love to know who "thinks" he is a sniper expert.

I brought this up earlier in this same thread about the "humping" going on on those snipers. Not just the Tula ones, but all of them. Fresh stamps, modern fonts, Tulas marked with scope numbers when the Soviets never did that. It's an example of turning a blind eye. No one wants to ask that question. Oh, you're not an idiot at all. Especially if he didn't give you a good answer........ I wonder why that was?


No, your not an idiot ...he is for trying to use that sort of lame tactics.

Dolk

[BuckeyeSgt]

Maybe, but you are our idiot. I doubt you are. Reason dictates questions at least to me, therefore reasons dictate I am an idiot also.

Hhmm, where do I take this one Brad??

I wouldn't go there if I were you. let it go!

I'm going to let it go, been a long busy week and I wore out all my humor during my presentations last night and today. And I'm hoping if I ever get up to the NW Brad will send me an invite and let me shoot up all his ammo.

[desdem12]

You are very welcome in my hood Drew, But you better bring the ammo with. It is in short supply here. I will gladly supply the burgers and rifles.