What was the alkaline solution in the cleaning bottles?

[clayshooter2]

Don't be paranoid about corrosive ammo. There are many effective ways to clean your rifle after shooting mil surp ammo. It is not so much what you use to clean it, just make sure you clean it. I personally come from the Hoppes #9 camp; but whatever you use, just make sure you clean it right away and every time and you shouldn't ever have any problems.

[desdem12]

I lived in a tiny apt. before and i boiled the water and then used the kitchen sink to pour it in. Was not ideal but worked ok!

[Darryl]

Ok so, this whole corrosive ammo thing has got me a little paranoid. I plan to baby my M44 when I get it and wont to be sure I am cleaning that garbage out completely. I normally clean my weapons in the bath tub and so if I remove the barrel and run hot water from the tub faucet and then clean it with my favorite gun cleaner will that be suficiant? Does the water half to be boiling hot. Sorry to be such a noob guys I just want to preserve my rifle to its fullest.

Don't be paranoid.

The salt comes from the primer, not the powder. So you are dealing with a very small amount of it.

Think of it this way, these rifles were in some terrible battles. They didn't call "time out" while everyone cleaned their rifles. They did it when they got a chance to. Sometimes hours after the battle. This is your rifles history.

Now, there may be some damage from all of that, but the chances you will destroy your rifle further is very slim. Take your time and when you can, clean your rifle. I wouldn't wait for a day or so, but if it's only an hour or so...so what. This is a battle rifle!

The simple fact is, if you strip your rifles barrel and receiver off (so the stock don't get messed up), you can pour a quart of water down the barrel and that will almost completly remove the salt. But if you use boil or very very hot water, it is even better. At that point, the salts are gone and you can now stop hyperventilating!

Now clean the rifle with what every turns you on. Hoppies, Sweets, really doesn't matter. Most of them will clear the copper out anyway and deal with the powder. A Few dry patches. A few lightly soaked oil patches. Then put a thin coat of gun oil (again, your choice as most of them work just fine) and put it back together.

There is nothing wrong with shooting corrosive ammo as long as you clean it in a reasonable amount of time. It's not going to eat your rifle apart!

OOPS, don't forget to clean the bolt (especially the face).


Dolk

Notice how I dodged the "best oil" and "best cleaner".....don't want to go there!


How to clean a Mosin: (Info Pages)
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant-forum.c ... index.html
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[vblue42]

Thanks for all of the encouraging tips guys. I feel much better now. I just hope the last person or persons that owned it took care of it. I wont know till I receive it sometime next week.

[Darryl]

Thanks for all of the encouraging tips guys. I feel much better now. I just hope the last person or persons that owned it took care of it. I wont know till I receive it sometime next week.

You won't know anything till you put some rounds through it. I've seen terrible bores with terrible pits, shoot really really good. You can't tell how a rifle will shoot, til you shoot it!

Dolk

[WeldonHunter]

"Some think the boiling water is overkill." No it's not and I can tell you from experience with it on other things besides firearms. Heat helps dissolve water soluble chemicals faster. If you've ever made iced tea and used hot water to steep the tea bags you'd notice when adding the sugar if the tea water is hot the sugar melts almost immediately. I'll go out on a limb and say it's no different with salt. I make iced tea by sitting tea bags in a container on the windowsill at room temp. and when I add the sugar it almost never melts right away. I know I need to shake the container again to completely dissolve the sugar later.

So then why boiling water and not hot water? As Jim has pointed out many times before and I agree the heat from the boiling water transfers into the metal you're cleaning whether it's the barrels bore or any other part. That heat once the flushing of the salts is complete helps to evaporate any remaining water. Trust me it works. I used to restore cast iron cookware. Frying pans from the turn of the last century along with Dutch ovens and griddle pans, muffin pans you name it. The first step was to soak them in a solution containing 70% sodium hydroxide (Lye) that my buddy got from an old chemist friend. I'll skip ahead but the last step before curing them was to clean them in extremely hot water to remove all the cleaners but to also remove any water that was left behind in the pores of the metal by way of evaporation. We cleaned 100s of them at a time and what he did was turn the water heater all the way up and wore some seriously thick rubber gloves. As they cooled the water evaporated. Then they were quickly sprayed with Pam as the first step in the curing and to halt any rust. The same needs to be done when cleaning a firearm using hot water let it dry a few minutes standing vertical but use some gun oil in the bore/chamber fairly quick to avoid rusting. It can happen faster than you may think.

One of the most important points I've seen in this thread is "Note that water doesn't neutralize the salt - it dissolves it." Huge distinction. I see it so many times that guys take a bottle of Windex with them to the range and spray into the barrel after shooting stating they do this to neutralize the salts when in fact what they're doing is speeding up the corrosion process by introducing water laden Windex to dissolve the salts and spread them more evenly on the barrel. Salt is corrosive because it attracts water and holds it in place and it's actually the water along with oxygen that cause rust. Only a good flushing with water in a fair quantity is going to dissolve and remove the salts.

Just my opinion here. Your results may be different but this has served me well.

[WeldonHunter]

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I like that Darryl. Look at this. http://www.jabtac.com/hoppes-freshener- ... 15567.html
Hoppes airfreshener. It's a guy thing, lol.

[mrb7]

As for Windex at the range, I cannot agree more that all this will do is make things worse.

As I found in my reading, the ammonia level in blue glass cleaner is at best pathetically low for effectively removing Cu. Certainly it's better than nothing, but not up to standard as any dedicated copper scavaging product would do.

And the ammonia product is not going to rinse the corrosive salts away. If blue glass cleaner is what you have, then use it just before you clean the rifle when you get home. But don't slop around the residue in the barrel with a liquid lunch and leave it to dry in your back seat.

I also found that Hoppes Bench Rest, and not Hoppes 9, is their copper scavenger. Hoppes 9 is a powder and Pb solvent it seems. Or at least that's what I seemed to get as an understanding. Someone correct me if I'm wrong please. I'm happy not to need another product.

Back to my original question, what was intended to be dispensed in the little bottle? Again, knowing what I've learned in the past 24 hours I strongly suspect it was an ammonia based liquid just like Hombre first suggested it was. Probably about the strength of a commercial ammonia based cleaning concentrate. But that's just a guess.

MB

[Hombre]

I have not been able to find anything definitive on Russian sites yet. The discussions I saw shows that they are as much in the dark as to exactly what the alkaline solution was as we are. They are basically making the same guesses that we are here - that it was water with ammonia.

Hatcher's Notebook shows a very strong stong solution and it is important to remember that using this is not for novices. And it was for heavy cupro-nickle fouling. This was not used for the copper fouling of the later bullets.

Also this solution was used only by the National Match teamsbecause the cupro-nickle fouling really messed up accuracy. Apparently the fouling was not considered to be a problem enough for regular rifle useage. Also the strong solution and its awkward application would not be practical for field use.

Here are the applicable paragraphs from Hatcher's Notebook:

[Machodoc]

I know the mercuric fulminate on old caps is corrosive as all get out. But I don't know what's corrosive in the primers on surplus ammo. I just don't know enough about how they work.

I don't think that it's likely that you'll find mercuric fulminate in surplus Moisin-Nagant caps. I'm sure some was made in the very early days, but probably not since WWI, or so. (People were so used to saying that primers were made of mercuric fulminate that it was assumed to be used long after that practice had ceased.) I think that the corrosive materials in the primers of the surplus ammo that you are now likely to find is potassium chlorate.

[Hombre]

I know the mercuric fulminate on old caps is corrosive as all get out. But I don't know what's corrosive in the primers on surplus ammo. I just don't know enough about how they work.

I don't think that it's likely that you'll find mercuric fulminate in surplus Moisin-Nagant caps. I'm sure some was made in the very early days, but probably not since WWI, or so. (People were so used to saying that primers were made of mercuric fulminate that it was assumed to be used long after that practice had ceased.) I think that the corrosive materials in the primers of the surplus ammo that you are now likely to find is potassium chlorate.

There is potassium chlorate in the primer but that is before the primer is fired and is not corrosive. When the primer is fired, the potassium chlorate undergoes a chemical reaction to provide oxygen so that the fuel component of the primer can burn in the confined space. The chemical reaction also produces potassium chloride which is a salt. The salt is hygroscopic so it attracts water and it is the water/salt that is corrosive.

Mercury fulminate primers are corrosive to copper but not to steel. They were used with muzzle loaders and black powder but with the advent of brass cartridge cases they were dropped because almost everyone reloaded back then and did not want their cartridge cases damaged by the mercury fulminate.

It was the blackpowder that was "corrosive as all getout" to the steel barrels - not the mercury primers.

[Junk Yard Dog]

I remember many years ago finding a small bottle of USGI solvent in a surplus store, I opened it up and the smell was a bit strong, I asked what it was and an old timer pipes up in the back " that's old army piss son" I tried some anyway and ended up using it on my rifles for many years. You can't find that stinky old stuff so easy anymore, and I keep some on hand, not to use, but to dribble on the counter sometimes to perfume the workshed, that smell brings me right back in time to my first Garand, and '03's.

[Hombre]

I remember many years ago finding a small bottle of USGI solvent in a surplus store, I opened it up and the smell was a bit strong, I asked what it was and an old timer pipes up in the back " that's old army piss son" I tried some anyway and ended up using it on my rifles for many years. You can't find that stinky old stuff so easy anymore, and I keep some on hand, not to use, but to dribble on the counter sometimes to perfume the workshed, that smell brings me right back in time to my first Garand, and '03's.

JYD, I recall seeing USGI solvent in flat cans sort of like a 3 in 1 can but with a screw on cap. Do you recall seeing those?

[Junk Yard Dog]

Small green can? I have three of them in the closet I found at the last car show.swap meet, Vietnam dated, light weapons oil. The USGI solvent is in the small oval shaped cans made to fit the cartridge belt. I buy any USGI oil I spot, last time out I got some of the early 60's dated quart size cans, and I still have two gallon cans of the stuff, 1943 dated stashed away.

[Hombre]

JYD that was a good solvent but I think it was used post WWII for the M1 Rifle after the US stopped using corrosive primers.

During WWII the US 30 caliber ammunition was corrosive and a different cleaning process was used.

I don't have an old field manual for the M1 Carbine (which as you know did not have corrosive ammo) but probably the older solvent you have was used for it.

Witness this section of the 1940 version of Field manual FM 23-5 for U.S. M1 rifle and note that water was used, obviously to get rid of the salt from the corrosive primers.

The 1965 version of this manual says do not use water - use the military solvent. (By that time they were no longer using corrosive primers.)

[tjtM38]

I think this is a really good discussion. I think I have a couple of cans of Mil 382B somewhere in the house.

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=6902

[Hombre]

I think this is an interesting read about GI bore cleaners - notice spec numbers of various dates and manufacturers:

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthrea ... re-cleaner

“Bore cleaner formulas varied by manufacturer. Curran, S.C. Johnson, A.S. Boyle and Banner's 1944 contract (quart can) all used the cresylic acid / kerosene mix, which is dark brown and smells terrible. Banner's 1943 contract (6oz can) is milky white in color. American Oil & Supply is amber colored, thicker, and smells a little like turpentine. Fidelity Manufacturing made the post-war style kerosene-based cleaner. Regardless of formula, all met the SPEC. USA 2-117.
The military “Cleaner- Rifle Bore”, military SPEC. RIXS-205, which changed later in the War to Spec 2-117 is primarily kerosene and Cresylic acid, similar to its first cousin, Creosote. Cresylic acid, an excellent bore cleaner, has an unpleasant odor, will instantly strip finish from wood, etch and/or dissolve many plastics and cements and swells rubber.”

In the 24Aug44 issue of TM 9-850 “Cleaning, Preserving, Sealing, Lubricating and related Material Issued for Ordnance Materiel,,, Bore Cleaner is described as “A water-in-oil emulsion which is clear and transparent when viewed by transmitted light,” and that it dissolves corrosive primer deposits. But nothing about the odor.

Now the 10Oct51 issue of this manual (I don’t have the 47 issue) describes Bore Cleaner as “An organic soap emulsion or solution water, paraffin oil, and solvents. The fluid is a unbalance emulsion and is clear and transparent when view by transmitted light. And goes on to say it is “free from disagreeable and offensive odors.” In some parts of the world ’paraffin oil’ is the same as kerosene but I am not so sure in this case.

Looks like water emulsion cleaners came into play some time after the 1940 version of the field manual. Need to find some other versions between 1940 and 1965. Hatcher mentions them but so far I have not found where he says what dates they were first used.

Unfortunately I have not been able to find any Russian firearm field manuals. Has anyone heard of them? Know of a site where they can be seen and/or downloaded?

tjtM38 did you mean Mil-C-372B?

[Bkloes]

Interesting discussion....To OP, don't feel bad about babying your rifle I was doing that a few months ago when I bought my first surplus rifle (M39). I asked around here and have been doing the suggested boiling water down the barrel, followed by patches until the come clean....once in awhile I use a copper brush a few times but very minimal. I finish with a few oily patches. I have been taking my bolt apart each time and soaking it...not sure if that is necessary. I also pour some water through the magazine slot. Does anyone add any ammonia to their hot water for Cu foiling/build up?

[Junk Yard Dog]

JYD that was a good solvent but I think it was used post WWII for the M1 Rifle after the US stopped using corrosive primers.

During WWII the US 30 caliber ammunition was corrosive and a different cleaning process was used.

I don't have an old field manual for the M1 Carbine (which as you know did not have corrosive ammo) but probably the older solvent you have was used for it.

Witness this section of the 1940 version of Field manual FM 23-5 for U.S. M1 rifle and note that water was used, obviously to get rid of the salt from the corrosive primers.

The 1965 version of this manual says do not use water - use the military solvent. (By that time they were no longer using corrosive primers.)

I bought an entire case of 40's era rifle bore cleaning solution on eBay a few years ago, it is printed on the cans that it is for corrosive primed ammunition. The US Army used corrosive primed M2 ball until at least 1954, all of WW2 and the Korean War were corrosive years. They would have had corrosive ammunition in inventory for years afterward until it was used up. The bore cleaner I found on ebay is a milky looking thin solution with no particular smell, I suspect it uses water as the main ingredient. I posted the wood crate of the stuff on the old forum at the time I got it. I use it when I am shooting corrosive ammo away from home and will not be back for some hours, then I run boiling water through everything. Inside that ratty looking crate the cans looked brand new.

[Junk Yard Dog]

“Bore cleaner formulas varied by manufacturer. Curran, S.C. Johnson, A.S. Boyle and Banner's 1944 contract (quart can) all used the cresylic acid / kerosene mix, which is dark brown and smells terrible

This is the stuff in the tiny cans, I like the smell, it's an acquired taste, but others have complained long and loud about it.