What was the alkaline solution in the cleaning bottles?

[mrb7]

The troops in the field were issued the little two sided bottles we all have with the alkaline solution on one side and the oil on the other side.

What was the alkaline solution? Something like Hoppe's 9? Or any alkali to neutralize the Berdan primer's residue? (Which I assume must be acidic.) Would lye and water have worked?

Anyone know?

[Hombre]

I don't recall anyone pointing out any documention but I think it would be simply water and ammonia.(Ammonia is an alkali),

According to Hatcher's notebook the US Army discovered that the way do deal with the primer salt corrosion problem was to use water as a first step to clean firearms because water dissolves salt. They added ammonia because they also were having trouble with cupro-nickle in the bore from bullet jackets. Thus the ammonia was there to dissolve the cupro-nickle and has nothing to do with the primer salt.

Note that water doesn't neutralize the salt - it dissolves it.

The Russians paid a lot of attention to how the US Army does things back at least to American Cival War era, so It would not surprise me if they got the idea of an " alkali solution" from us.

Hoppe's 9 is not water based and will not disslove the salt.

BTW Some salts can be acidic and some can be base. Potassium chloride (primer produced salt) is neutral thus does not need to be "neutralized".

[mrb7]

Ok. So the idea is to dissolve the salts. Not neutralize an acid with the alkali?

Then why the alkaline solution?

[Hombre]

Ok. So the idea is to dissolve the salts. Not neutralize an acid with the alkali?

Then why the alkaline solution?

Re- read my post. I may have added some since you read it.

[mrb7]

OK, I think I see. The alkaline is to remove the cupro-nickle.

I think you meant to say the the water "doesn't" neutralize the salts, but rather dissolves them. Is this right? [EDIT: ok, I see that you've edited the post now. Makes far more sense.]

I also did a bit of looking and to my surprise found that Berdan primers, which I've always been told were corrosive, have nothing whatever to do with the igniter chemical at all. Berdan developed the fastener mechanism. So Berdan primers can be corrosive or non-corrosive. News to me.

[Three_Dogs]

Another informative topic Guys, Thanks for sharing. I learn something new here everyday.

[Hombre]

OK, I think I see. The alkaline is to remove the cupro-nickle.

I think you meant to say the the water "doesn't" neutralize the salts, but rather dissolves them. Is this right?

I also did a bit of looking and to my surprise found that Berdan primers, which I've always been told were corrosive, have nothing whatever to do with the igniter chemical at all. Berdan developed the fastener mechanism. So Berdan primers can be corrosive or non-corrosive. News to me.

Yes that is what I meant to say and now I have corrected it - thank you.

I have known about the Berdan primers being both types for a long time and have posted about that in both the new forum and in the old forum. And I think others have as well. But the news drifts off into the archives so it does not hurt to mention it again once in a while as you have.

[mrb7]

Do we know what it was, though? Was it ammonia?

[Hombre]

Do we know what it was, though? Was it ammonia?

As I said, I don't know of any documentation that states what it actually was but I have not searched for it lately. If I get some time tomorrow I may try some of the improved Google translation tools and search with key words in Russian.

What other alkali can you think of that could be used in water and would dissolve copper and nickle? And if it worked for us why would the Russians use something different? (Just questions that come to mind while thinking about it.)

[vblue42]

Hey guys Im sure its on the forum somewhere but I did search and didn't come up with a hit. Can someone point me to the link that describes the best way to clean the Mosin to deal with corrosive ammo? Thanks.

[mrb7]

What other alkali can you think of that could be used in water and would dissolve copper and nickle? And if it worked for us why would the Russians use something different? (Just questions that come to mind while thinking about it.)

I really don't know either. Frankly I don't know what we used for that matter. I'm kind of new to the Mil-Surp world. I do know black powder, but that's tons of water for the fouling and lead balls. Whole different animal there.

I think acetone would work as a solvent, but that brings its own set of problems on the scene that are probably worse than the cure.

Given that the ammonia is to dissolve the Cu and Ni, is Windex or other blue window cleaners really concentrate enough to do any good? What I've been doing since I found this site is generic blue window cleaner for ammonia, a quart of boiling water, then Hoppe's 9.

Now, after this discussion, I realize that the window cleaner and the Hoppe's are actually doing the same thing, except I question the usefulness of window cleaner. Perhaps a bottle of ammonia based kitchen concentrate. But for now I'll stick with Hoppe's 9 which is formulated for the job.


Some info on the Berdan primers BTW. I have no idea why Dave Cushman's links are hyphenated in one link but not the other.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/berdan ... sions.html

http://davecushman.net/berdandecap.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centerfire_ammunition

[mrb7]

Hey guys Im sure its on the forum somewhere but I did search and didn't come up with a hit. Can someone point me to the link that describes the best way to clean the Mosin to deal with corrosive ammo? Thanks.

I can't find it right now, but the suggestions here are to use boiling water down the barrel first, then a good cleaning solution until clean patches.

Some think the boiling water is overkill. I know the mercuric fulminate on old caps is corrosive as all get out. But I don't know what's corrosive in the primers on surplus ammo. I just don't know enough about how they work.

[mrb7]

OK, well I've done quite a bit of reading tonight, and I've learned a lot. And much of what I've learned is applicable to far more that just these good old Mosins. It's good for what ails our other huntin' rifle too.

First, the Hoppe's 9 isn't really a Cu solvent, but a powder and Pb solvent. So while it's good, it isn't helping with the FMJ ammo Cu jackets. Second, ammonia has apparently been the preferred Cu solvent for over a century, and there are a number of apparently good Cu solvent products on the market as well as just plain old ammonia. But blue window cleaner is kind of weak, albeit it's certainly better than nothing at all.

I'll leave it up to anyone to research the dozens of web pages on Cu solvents. Frankly I have done exactly zero research on them myself, and anything I say at this point is pure blowing smoke. Google will tell you just as much as it has told me. Maybe if I get some real world experience I'll be willing to say one way or the other about a specific product, but not now.

I suspect, however, if Hombre does track down anything about the solution for the bottle it will turn out that it's some kind of ammonia based deal since that's obviously been the go-to chemical for a hundred years.

[SA1911a1]

This is my unsupported theory:

I would be surprised if the Soviet army provided a constant supply of a specific gun cleaner to troops in the field. I would think that gasoline or diesel fuel would have been a more common cleaning solution. The Soviets were always short of transportation and were hard pressed to deliver ammuniton and fuel and food to the troops in the field, much less frivilous stuff like cleaning solutions, medicine, boots, etc.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Hey guys Im sure its on the forum somewhere but I did search and didn't come up with a hit. Can someone point me to the link that describes the best way to clean the Mosin to deal with corrosive ammo? Thanks.

You can clear the salts out of the bore by simply flushing them out with boiling water. A quart poured right from a small teapot down the chamber while you hold the rifle muzzle down by the buttstock, Hit the bolt head and magazine follower with some water later. Then you just clean the rifle with Hoppes 9 bore solvent. For detailed cleaning and disassembly instructions see the forum information pages.

[Hombre]

This is my unsupported theory:
I would be surprised if the Soviet army provided a constant supply of a specific gun cleaner to troops in the field. I would think that gasoline or diesel fuel would have been a more common cleaning solution. The Soviets were always short of transportation and were hard pressed to deliver ammuniton and fuel and food to the troops in the field, much less frivilous stuff like cleaning solutions, medicine, boots, etc.

At the time they marked the double bottle one side was marked with a letter that indicated alkaline solution. So at that time they intended that to be used. My discussion was directed toward what the intended alkaline solution might have been –what was used under field expediency is another matter.

Thinking about what was actually used in the field and when it was done I reason it as follows:

Hatcher states that nothing was found that got rid of the primer salt better than water. And says that the practice of the US Army was to use water first "preferably hot". Then to use powder solvent if available.

The cupro-nickle jacketed bullets were really bad for metal fouling (clumps of it were appearing in the bore).
Copper jacketed or copper washed steel bullets were found to cause far less metal fouling. Both the US and Russia dropped the cupro nickel bullets long ago and you don't see much of it now even on ammo from the ‘40s. (Some of my Turkish 8 mm Mauser ammo does has cupro-nickle bullets.)

A single chamber bottle came with one of my rifles so I am thinking that Russia may have even dropped the field use of alkaline solutionafter they they adopted the newer bullets and provided just an oil bottle.

Since water usually would be available and it is the thing that dissolves the salt my guess would that if powder dissolving solvent was not available in the field the procedure would have been to use water first and then some kind of oil.

Oil Bottles.jpg

[vblue42]

Ok so, this whole corrosive ammo thing has got me a little paranoid. I plan to baby my M44 when I get it and wont to be sure I am cleaning that garbage out completely. I normally clean my weapons in the bath tub and so if I remove the barrel and run hot water from the tub faucet and then clean it with my favorite gun cleaner will that be suficiant? Does the water half to be boiling hot. Sorry to be such a noob guys I just want to preserve my rifle to its fullest.

[Hombre]

Ok so, this whole corrosive ammo thing has got me a little paranoid. I plan to baby my M44 when I get it and wont to be sure I am cleaning that garbage out completely. I normally clean my weapons in the bath tub and so if I remove the barrel and run hot water from the tub faucet and then clean it with my favorite gun cleaner will that be suficiant? Does the water half to be boiling hot. Sorry to be such a noob guys I just want to preserve my rifle to its fullest.

Do you take a bath along side the rifle - if so the potassium chloride may make your hammer fall off. (Just playing with your paranoid tendacy. )

The dissolving process no doubt happens a bit faster the warmer the water is. But Hatcher said that hot water is prefered - not that it would not work if cold.

However you do it you must make sure all the water has been dried off. (Putting the whole thing in a bath tub may make that harder to accomplish.) Then all parts should get a light coat of oil. You may want to put a light coat of gun grease on the metal that will be covered by wood.

[desdem12]

The boiling water will steam itself off and be dry by the time you are done cleaning.

[vblue42]

I live in a one bedroom apartment and don't have a lot of room to clean a large rifle. I do have a balcony but I really don't want a lot of people knowing what I have in my apartment. I use the tube so I can have an area to work in and so I can wash the dirt down the drain. The plan is to use the hot water faucet to wash the bore out then dry the whole thing off, then use my favorite gun cleaner and gun oil. I certainly want to get all of that damn salt out of my rifle. I will also be looking into getting some non corrosive ammo in the future so as to reduce my paranoia.