Casing Issues - Ammo? Rifle? Dangerous?

[Spacecase]

For those of you who may be interested, here are photos of more of the casings. The first 3 photos are of the 4 casings that cracked, the rest are the ones that appear normal.

[desertgunner]

Spacecase,
the first picture: Are the shells in sequence as shot, if so, was the first to the right the first one?
If that is correct, then you have the damage building up shot by shot to the left.
IMHO this would point to heat-up and a chamber problem: Too wide when too hot....
How many rounds did you fire overall..?
Were the cracked ones in the last batch?

[andrewd41]

If your rifle only split a few??? I would not blame the rifle. I have put close to 400 rounds of Russian milsurp from 1976 within a month's time, and only split 3 rounds. I like you, I saved all the empty cases after each session just to see the results. 3 out of 400 lead me to believe the ammo is the suspect.

[Spacecase]

Spacecase,
the first picture: Are the shells in sequence as shot, if so, was the first to the right the first one?
If that is correct, then you have the damage building up shot by shot to the left.
IMHO this would point to heat-up and a chamber problem: Too wide when too hot....
How many rounds did you fire overall..?
Were the cracked ones in the last batch?

Unfortunately, I did not notice the cracking while I was firing. It is only by chance that I saved some of the casings and noticed the cracking later, so I have no idea if they were among the first or last rounds. I only shot a few, as I was firing the rifle for the first time, so I may have missed a few casings, but not many.

[Spacecase]

If your rifle only split a few??? I would not blame the rifle. I have put close to 400 rounds of Russian milsurp from 1976 within a month's time, and only split 3 rounds. I like you, I saved all the empty cases after each session just to see the results. 3 out of 400 lead me to believe the ammo is the suspect.

I would tend to agree with you, but since I did not shoot many (maybe 20 rounds), and 4 cracked, that seems like a high percentage. I'm going to have the rifle checked out either way; better safe than sorry.

[MosinJohn]

One other thing to consider. It doesn't look to me like the cases were annealed after forming, so the neck/shoulder area more than likely has been work hardened by the forming process. By not relieving the hardening, that area of the case is going to be somewhat brittle, and prone to cracking. I guess the Warsaw Pact didn't see a need since the cases would fired then discarded.

[WeldonHunter]

Based on this, would you favor the conclusion that these cracks were most likely caused by throat erosion, or other factors affecting casing support?

I would not think it is due to throat erosion because as I said, to me the throat means the non-rifled area immediately forward of where the cartridge case sits in the chamber. The area of the chamber covered by the cartridge case is protected pretty much from erosion, by the case. (Erosion is caused by hot gases rushing over a surface.)

It could be caused by an oversized chamber but I think your split is due to a bad case.

I'll add one thing here you left out. Throat errosion might be caused by escaping gases in most cases but remember these rifles were used with corrosive ammo and the throat would be a place that could be neglected to a point by someone only running a cleaning rod down the bore and not getting all the corrosive salts out of the chamber/throat. Remember also I have some 1985 Russian Lugansk that only splits cases like this in one rifle I have. A 1952 Polish M44 with a very pitted bore. It's hard to see the throat so I really don't know if it's erroded. The same ammo doesn't split like that in any other rifle though. Actually the next time Fred_G and I shot I'm doing a few ammo tests with that rifle and ammo and a bunch of other rifles and ammo. I'm going to see if any other ammo splits in that rifle. I'm also going to test some of the recent 1946 I got splits in any rifles because some have said they've been seeing this. I'll be trying out some of the 182gr heavy ball also. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[Junk Yard Dog]

I have seen failures like this with several kinds of steel case ammo, Hungarian, Czech, Russian, there was no rhyme or reason for the splits as they were in different rifles from different lots of ammo shot over many years and thousands of rounds apart. It's something I have come to take for granted when shooting antique ammunition made by the enemy using the cheapest components they could get away with. Sometimes I would see one or two splits like that out of a hundred rounds fired, and not see another for several months. I am surprised at how few of them I do see considering the quality of this commie ammo compared to western commercial stuff, or western milsurp. I never saw any splits while using the Yugo light ball, that brass case/lead core bullet stuff was commercial quality. In fact at the same time in the late 80's Privi, or the factory that would become Privi was already selling ammo on the commercial markets. I was buying my .303 Brit from them. Steel cases are crap compared to brass, the steel is low grade as it is a disposable product, and has to be weak enough to expand in the chamber. Some steel cases fail to expand well enough, the Hungarian cases often showed evidence of soot on the case sides were it wouldn't have been had the case properly expanded, this made for an especially filthy receiver when the cases failed and blew shit into the works. If the ammo hadn't been dirt cheap, and surprisingly accurate I would have stopped using it. Don't expect miracles from this surplus ammo, keep in mind who made it and when.

[Hombre]

…… I'll add one thing here you left out. Throat errosion might be caused by escaping gases in most casesbut remember these rifles were used with corrosive ammo and the throat would be a place that could be neglected to a point by someone only running a cleaning rod down the bore and not getting all the corrosive salts out of the chamber/throat. …….

By definition erosion is the carrying away of material from a suface by a substance moving over it. In firearms the substance moving over the surface is hot gases. So if someone wanted to include the effect of corrosion they should say throat erosion/corrosion. I "left out" corrosion because I was asked about erosion.

However I agree that there are other things that can remove material in the throat (including cleaning with a wire brush) but whatever causes the loss of metal the throat does not support the case and changes to its diameter would not cause any splits.

[WeldonHunter]

…… I'll add one thing here you left out. Throat errosion might be caused by escaping gases in most casesbut remember these rifles were used with corrosive ammo and the throat would be a place that could be neglected to a point by someone only running a cleaning rod down the bore and not getting all the corrosive salts out of the chamber/throat. …….

By definition erosion is the carrying away of material from a suface by a substance moving over it. In firearms the substance moving over the surface is hot gases. So if someone wanted to include the effect of corrosion they should say throat erosion/corrosion. I "left out" corrosion because I was asked about erosion.

However I agree that there are other things that can remove material in the throat (including cleaning with a wire brush) but whatever causes the loss of metal the throat does not support the case and changes to its diameter would not cause any splits.

My point is a void next to the case might afford a place for the case to expand to and split in the process. It's mainly just a suggestion because I'm not qualified to state it as an absolute.

[Hombre]

.... My point is a void next to the case might afford a place for the case to expand to and split in the process. It's mainly just a suggestion because I'm not qualified to state it as an absolute.

I agree fully with that and if that is present I would imagine his GS could see it during his inspection. I think several of will be interested in what the GS findings are.

[millman]

I may have said this before, IT is the ammo. Steel cased commie ammo is a crap shoot. Wear your shooting glasses and you will be fine.

[Spacecase]

I will report back once my GS has a chance to look at it. I also bought some nice S&B ammo to test as well.
Thank you all for your comments.

[Spacecase]

The headspace gauges arrived, and my rifle passed both tests.
With the "NO-GO" gauge, the bolt did not close, and it also did not close with the more forgiving "FIELD" gauge, so that probably allows us to discard the potential headspace problem being the cause of the split cases.
Next step; GS.

[jeremyb]

I hope your experience with the Gun smith is better than mine.

[Hombre]

The headspace gauges arrived, and my rifle passed both tests.
With the "NO-GO" gauge, the bolt did not close, and it also did not close with the more forgiving "FIELD" gauge, so that probably allows us to discard the potential headspace problem being the cause of the split cases.
Next step; GS.

Not sure what you mean by the "more forgiving "FIELD" gauge" But to me it would mean that the field gauge allows more headspace than the no go does.

The field gauge is thicker that the "no-go" gauge so if the bolt did not close on the no go gauge it certainly would not close on the field guage.

And since I believe that excessive headspace does not cause longitudinal splits at the neck I agree that you can "discard the potential headspace problem being the cause of the split cases".

By the way it is my opinion that they are both no go gauges; normal no go and field no go.

Similar to the way "hard disk drive" became "hard drive", lazy speech has done away with the "normal" and the second "no go" in {normal no go and field no go}.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Cheap, mass produced commie ammo made from the least expensive components that could be gotten away with. They needed their limited cash reserves for making ICBM's, and Boomers, I can only imagine the cost cutting ideas they used with those projects.

[Spacecase]

According to the manufacturer of the gauges, the "Field" gauge is military specs which are more forgiving than the "No-Go". The bolt came closer to closing with the "Field".

[Spacecase]

I hope your experience with the Gun smith is better than mine.

I have a very good and honest GS; I'm sure you can find one like that as well.

[Junk Yard Dog]

You would be surprised at how difficult some members have found it to locate a gunsmith who knows anything about milsurp antiques.