Proposal 1A Type Grade for Russian M91/30 Sniper Rifles

[bunkysdad]

Finloq, you might be a poet and didn't know it. Your favorite sounds like it could easily be my favorite too from the description.

[finloq]

Finloq, you might be a poet and didn't know it. Your favorite sounds like it could easily be my favorite too from the description.

I hope that you never find my tunnel. I'm going for your favorite Dragoon, next.

[Rongo]

Looks complicated. Not to worry... I probably will never get a PU Sniper. I could run circles around a PU with my Remington 700 with Swift scope.

the first time I held a Mosin PU, looked down the scope & fiddled with it I had a hard time figuring why everyone was all ga-ga over it. then there's the price. For me even $400 for a real one would be a stretch & forget it at $800. I could buy a real nice Springfield 1903, a few Finns or get something else on the want list that would actually go to the range with me from time to time.

[Darryl]

Alright!

Thank you for taking the time to go through this suggestion.

I will however take a stab at your list and show some of the flaws in it.

Type 7 - These are not sniper rifles. They are destroyed M91/30 standard infantry rifles with a scope screwed on them. Not allowed on these forums.

Good then people will know not to bring that here or talk about them. But that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point is that those types are not REAL Russian Sniper
rifles and so they don't command the value that a Real one does. (They don't command any value in my opinion)

Type 6 - These are not sniper rifles. They are cobbled together fakes. Not allowed on these forums.

They are Sniper Rifles but not Genuine or Real. Fake as you call them. Again same as above but they are still worth more then Type 7. No, they are not a sniper. They are fakes and are put together. Real come out of the arsenals in the sniper configuration, these don't.

Type 5 - 1) Electro penciling is part of the refurb process. It has nothing to do with the authenticity of the rifle at all. In fact, some EP should be on a refurbished sniper. 2) You are going to put a very rare characteristic such as a laminated stock down that far on this list? I have only seen one myself and it was on a RGUNS rifle, which means it is a real sniper with a very rare variation. I'm assuming your list is in some sort of order by desirability, it's sure shows that way. If not, that is a separate problem. Since you do not have a restriction about Post war parts, I assume they are OK? Any PU sniper with post war parts (except the stock) is incorrect and made after the war or a fake, or a cobbled together rifle.

Okay wait...you just said Electropenciling is part of the refurb process and some should be on Snipers but then you also say it has nothing to do with authenticity.
So you're saying that Real WW2 ( World War 2 ) Snipers have Electropenciling on them that was done after WW2 correct? You're arguing, and I won't argue with you. EP was part of the refurbishment process after the war, and is a legitamate item to see on a reufurbished PU sniper which is what 99% of the snipers are. I wrote this and altered it a dozen time and did not make this clear. read up on the refurbish process.

From this point upward (type 4 to type 1) 99% of all PU snipers are arsenal refurbished rifles. what this means is
1) No such thing as "matching numbers rifles. None of them have matching bolts. All the bolts on refurbs were re-stamped or EP'd. Some were stamped with numbers only and others stamped with prefix and numbers and some EP'd...all the same. The fonts will not match the barrel shank is how we know they did them all.

Okay. I think that the Russian fonts used generally have the same characteristics. Am I wrong here? Generally....maybe. But specifically the fonts on the rifles changed after WWII. The fonts have slight differences if you compare WWII fonts to later 50's, 60's and 70's fonts. Not much you would notice unless you look very hard. When the rifle was made (originally) it was all stamped with the same set of stamps, all all the numbers and letters match. If they don't, you have a unmatched rifle. Which is 99% of every PU sniper that has been sold. Remember, we know the bolts were swapped and renumbered later.

2) Mixed arsenal parts. Because they were refurbished, parts such as the bans and bolt parts will be mixed. If they aren't mixed, it is only a fluke or someone has messed with the rifle and that is worse.

I understand that. But what if a Sniper has a Izhevsk Receiver, Barrel, Barrel Bands, Front Sight, Rear Sight? Are you saying that would be a fluke or someone messed with it? If it is a refurbished rifle, it mean nothing. It means either someone messed with the rifle and made them to match, or it was one hell of a coincidence that rifle got all the correct parts when they reached in the bins to put it back together. To me, it means nothing.

3) When you talk about "matching numbers", are you talking about matching serial numbers, or matching scope numbers, or both?
Example, I have a matching numbers (by your standards) sniper from RGUNS. All the serial numbers match (barrel shank, bolt, mag plate, buttplate, stock) also the scope numbers (on the side of the barrel shank, EP'd on mount (because they only EP'd the mount on a Izhevsk) and the scope itself). So what if one of those marks don't match? The rifle can be correct and a real sniper, but with a replaced part. And that is OK. But there is no room in your list for all the different choices possible.

There is room. That is why I asked for corrections.
Realistically how many possibilities are there going to be on a True or Real Russian Sniper? Thousands
Just an example here... You Have 2 Arsenal Stamps ( Tula ) & ( Izhevsk ) Cyrillic Letters, Numbers and Electropenciling.
Process of elimination works.

Then you missed the biggest PU sniper prize completely. And we had one just posted this last week. A completely non refurbished PU sniper with all the parts matching, but it has been banged a little. Not "Museum quality", and certainly no way of knowing if it was ever used by a "famous" sniper or not. But this rifle is a prize. Now how about all the variations of a "non refurbished sniper rifle also? Must be a few dozen different categories they could fall into also.

Ah you just said they don't exist because all bolts have been redone. Now you're saying the opposite? I don't understand what you're say here. I said 99% of the PU snipers on the market are refurbished and have replacement bolt. This rifle is not refurbished and is carrying it's original bolt. It is the 1% which is much rarer. Please read carefully.
And yes I did see that Russian Sniper just posted here a few days ago. It's sweet.
Yeah I made different categories like ( All matching Numbers with Mixed Arsenal Markings.)
So get rid of the ( No Post War Parts ) at the end then unless you say other wise by answering my earlier question.

Type M - How many of them would there be? Not worth mentioning. It's like the little Mosin that was made for the Czar's son.

Come on man that's just silly. There are lists of snipers and their kill numbers on the web and who knows what will show up for sale that's worthy of Museum Type ( M ) listing. Are you kidding me. Really.....And how will you authenticate that a particular rifle was used by a particular sniper. You can't. There are no records of this, so yes they are a limited few. Don't be silly your self.

Give you an example of the problem here. I have one sniper that is "all matching". Everything including the stock marked. All the scope number match. It is 100% the way it was during WWII....except.....we know the bolt is not original to it, because it can't be.(remember all refurbed snipers which are 99% of all snipers, are not with their original bolts). So where would it fit into your list? Type 3, 4, or 5? No refurbished PU sniper can be higher on your list than 3. Remember, this is a pretty rare thing on a sniper to have all the two number sets matching.

Never say never when it comes to WW2 stuff. To this day people are still finding out all sorts of things about the M4A1 - M4A3 Sherman Tank that previously people said never happened, didn't exist. No comment

My point to all of this (in my opinion) is: You can't toss these snipers into clear cut classifications. Some have this, other have that. Each item makes them more or less valuable. So do you have a classification for every single variation or combination of? Then there will be arguments on which features are more valuable.

No but We could at least try and make a reasonable chart and put it into the forum rules. Go ahead, are you a "sniper expert"? if you aren't, then you will likely make a useless and incomplete list.

Know your snipers and the different variations and know what you are looking at. That is all you need to know when buying one and estimating it's value.

True but most people don't and that is why they come to sites like this one. They need as much information as possible.
What?... are the experts reluctant to share their knowledge? I would hope not. I don't know, why don't you go ask a expert and find out.

One more time. (for the road).......If it wasn't a sniper when it left the arsenals of the country that owned it (that magic moment when it became a "Military Surplus" rifles on the open market), at that point if it was not in sniper configuration, then anything done to it after that point makes it a Fake or reproduction and has no business on these forums. The only one allowed to make a "sniper rifle" is the arsenal of the country that made those models. Not AIM, J&P, , Century, Molot, or Bubba in his garage. The only rifle I consider OK to place a scope back on is one that still has the open hole for the mount such as SAMCO's snipers. Because they are well marked when you buy one it is clear if it is wearing a mount and scope that it is not the original setup. If you have to "drill open" screw hole (re-snipering an exsniper) or drill any holes in the rifle, it is a fake or reproduction.

Okay I'll get to that later. I will say now though that what you are saying here is what makes me question any sniper that is sold on the market.
I'll go re-read up on the RGUNS again and see why they are claimed to be the Real Deal and the "Molot's" if you will, are in question. Probably should have done that before you started this thread. Can't argue a point unless you know what you are talking about first.

Because fakes and reproduction sniper always cause arguments on forums (not just here) we do not allow them here.
I may have made a mistake or so above, but if I did, I will correct them, but for the most part it is correct. Dolk PS: Could you imagine doing
this for every model Mosin made? Wow I suggest some study of the refurbishment process the PU went through (and most Mosins).
Then you will understand what 99% of them went through.

That's one of the reasons I'm here. I don't expect you or anyone else to spoon feed me. I do however ask
that people share their knowledge openly and not hide it. Talk to you later.

You seem to have an "attitude" about this point ("I do however ask that people share their knowledge openly and not hide it"). Do you think a "sniper expert" owes you his knowledge? Do you think anyone here on these forums "owes you" anything? No they don't. They do it because they like to and if they share anything here at all, it is of their own free will. No one owes anyone their knowledge. It's given here freely...most of the time. But to expect it.......no, I don't think so.

This (in my opinion) is going no where. I have responded to your questions above and I think that should suffice. There is plenty of information on sniper rifles and the refurbishment process on this website and the forums, and also on other "trusted websites" to gain a good knowledge of sniper rifles as well and all Mosins. Take time to read them.

Dolk