Proposal 1A Type Grade for Russian M91/30 Sniper Rifles

[etprescottazusa91]

This will be debated forever, rifles with all matching numbers, no electro pencil are still not necessarily "original" when comparing the fonts for example. All Russian rifles have been rebuilt at one time or another, I think the only true museum rifles are going to be those in Russian museums.

[desdem12]

Every last one i have is a TYPE 10000AAAAAA++++++ I have looked at my stash and tried to figure out what i could sell to get something else and i found nothing. I would only trade up now. There is no need for a catagory in my opinion but just my

[tjtM38]

Every last one i have is a TYPE 10000AAAAAA++++++ I have looked at my stash and tried to figure out what i could sell to get something else and i found nothing. I would only trade up now. There is no need for a catagory in my opinion but just my

Every one of mine are arsenal refurbs and a mixture of arsenal parts. I can tell that some stocks are wartime and some are post war, but how would I know that there were no "post war" parts in the gun itself? No offense, but for the majority of weapons (and owners) out there on the current market, there is no particular type that fits. I don't see this as a practical categorization or at least it is impractical for me. I agree with desdem12; mine are all type 10A.

[bunkysdad]

I have a better suggestion to end sniper arguing: stay out of the sniper section.

[desdem12]

I could say something snide here or just say that it is my choice Not to have a sniper. I prefer the old iron sights as i am old. I have a good time at the range out shooting the $1000 scopes and $2000 rifles with my 1 or $200 rifle. What i am saying is that what ever rifle you have in your collection is rated at the top of what you could get or what you wanted. There is no need to qualify a sniper against another sniper cause they are apples and different apples. The same goes for any milsurp in yours or mine and everybodies collection. I am affraid that i collect for myself and not for you and i am fairly happy with my own what ever is in it. Have a nice day.

[tincansailor]

I could say something snide here or just say that it is my choice Not to have a sniper. I prefer the old iron sights as i am old. I have a good time at the range out shooting the $1000 scopes and $2000 rifles with my 1 or $200 rifle. What i am saying is that what ever rifle you have in your collection is rated at the top of what you could get or what you wanted. There is no need to qualify a sniper against another sniper cause they are apples and different apples. The same goes for any milsurp in yours or mine and everybodies collection. I am affraid that i collect for myself and not for you and i am fairly happy with my own what ever is in it. Have a nice day.

Couldn't agree with you more! Here, Here,

[finloq]

I may pick up a PU if the current crop seems legit. But for now, if I want MOA accuracy, I'll use my post war M1 rifle.
Plus, I am kind of content that my Mosin Nagant collection includes: Czech, Romanian, Spanish and Finnish; but none that ended their military career in the Soviet Union. Excepting, of course, my Nagant; but that's not a Mosin.

[bunkysdad]

Wait, you have a Spanish Mosin? I ain't kiddin man, that makes me envious. Not that long ago, I passed up a couple of them for a good price, now they seem to be hard to find. I will soon have a SCW I hope. I really like em a lot.

[finloq]

Wait, you have a Spanish Mosin? I ain't kiddin man, that makes me envious. Not that long ago, I passed up a couple of them for a good price, now they seem to be hard to find. I will soon have a SCW I hope. I really like em a lot.

Very late 1917 Remington with a heck of an interesting cleaning rod.

[Darryl]

So you're tell us that you have Russian Sniper Rifles in your collection
but NONE of them fit into TYPE 1 - 5? Then you must not own one.

That is argumentative. The very thing you are trying to avoid.


A rating system will never be accepted in this field. Who would set this rating system, and how? Can see how your list has already started a disagreement? The very thing you tried to stop. You can't drop rifles into huge and vague categories. There are way too many variables.

If two people strongly disagree, do we all vote on it? No, you rate your own rifles and what you are buying. If you "rate" someone rifle, it will start a argument for sure.

Debate about a rifle or topic is all part of collecting. If you are not "schooled" on a subject, then you should stay out of a debate.

If it turns in to an argument, that is what we have the Administrators here for. They will lock a thread if it gets that bad. We lock a thread for several reasons, one is so others can see what is not acceptable. ..............If it weren't for that, we'd delete it.

Sniper rifles will always start debates. It is the reason we cut off discussions on "Reproduction" or "Fake" snipers on this forum. If that is a problem, I suggest trying a different forum. Because that is a perfect example of out of control debates.

This forum is a place for friendly discussions and helpful people. Especially to new Mosin owners. It is the reason for our recent success. We will continue down that path. Occasionally some discussions will get a little off that standard. But that is for the Administrators to take care of.

We have a lot of new members coming on board. Some are coming from other forums that do not share the same values or "fun attitude" we have here. If they share our values and goals and obey the rules here, they are welcome. If not, they will be asked to leave.....Or we will sick the "DOG" on them.

Dolk

[Celt]

Well said boss.

[tjtM38]

In fairness to the initial author of the post, I think I responded incorrectly thinking he was proposing this for all Mosin Nagant rifles. In the heat of battle I forgot I was in the "Sniper Forum." My apologies. I don't own a sniper and, quite honestly, don't intend on getting one at the prices they are asking for them, so I will back out of this and be more careful in the future.

[Darryl]

I will however take a stab at your list and show some of the flaws in it.


Type M - Museum Rifle in it's original configuration owned by a famous Sniper.
Type 1 - All matching Numbers and Arsenal Markings. No Post War Parts.
Type 2 - All matching Numbers with Mixed Arsenal Markings. No Post War Parts.
Type 3 - All matching Electropenciling and Arsenal Markings. No Post War Parts.
Type 4 - All matching Electropenciling with Mixed Arsenal Markings. No Post War Parts.
Type 5 - All matching Electropenciling with Mixed Arsenal Markings. Laminated Stocks.
Type 6 - Civilian Build of original Russian made parts and stocks. Pre and Post War.
Type 7 - Modern Reproduction or Sporterized.
Type 8 - Unidentified.


Type 8 - No such thing.

Type 7 - These are not sniper rifles. They are destroyed M91/30 standard infantry rifles with a scope screwed on them. Not allowed on these forums.

Type 6 - These are not sniper rifles. They are cobbled together fakes. Not allowed on these forums.


Type 5 - 1) Electro penciling is part of the refurb process. It has nothing to do with the authenticity of the rifle at all. In fact, some EP should be on a refurbished sniper. 2) You are going to put a very rare characteristic such as a laminated stock down that far on this list? I have only seen one myself and it was on a RGUNS rifle, which means it is a real sniper with a very rare variation. I'm assuming your list is in some sort of order by desirability, it's sure shows that way. If not, that is a separate problem. Since you do not have a restriction about Post war parts, I assume they are OK? Any PU sniper with post war parts (except the stock) is incorrect and made after the war or a fake, or a cobbled together rifle.



From this point upward (type 4 to type 1) 99% of all PU snipers are arsenal refurbished rifles. what this means is

1) No such thing as "matching numbers rifles. None of them have matching bolts. All the bolts on refurbs were re-stamped or EP'd. Some were stamped with numbers only and others stamped with prefix and numbers and some EP'd...all the same. The fonts will not match the barrel shank is how we know they did them all.

2) Mixed arsenal parts. Because they were refurbished, parts such as the bans and bolt parts will be mixed. If they arn't mixed, it is only a fluke or someone has messed with the rifle and that is worse.

3) When you talk about "matching numbers", are you talking about matching serial numbers, or matching scope numbers, or both?
Example, I have a matching numbers (by your standards) sniper from RGUNS. All the serial numbers match (barrel shank, bolt, mag plate, buttplate, stock) also the scope numbers (on the side of the barrel shank, EP'd on mount (because they only EP'd the mount on a Izhevsk) and the scope itself). So what if one of those marks don't match? The rifle can be correct and a real sniper, but with a replaced part. And that is OK. But there is no room in your list for all the different choices possible.


Then you missed the biggest PU sniper prize completely. And we had one just posted this last week. A completely non refurbished PU sniper with all the parts matching, but it has been banged a little. Not "Museum quality", and certainly no way of knowing if it was ever used by a "famous" sniper or not. But this rifle is a prize. Now how about all the variations of a "non refurbished sniper rifle also? Must be a few dozen different categories they could fall into also.


Type M - How many of them would there be? Not worth mentioning. It's like the little Mosin that was made for the Czar's son.



Give you an example of the problem here. I have one sniper that is "all matching". Everything including the stock marked. All the scope number match. It is 100% the way it was during WWII....except.....we know the bolt is not original to it, because it can't be.(remember all refurbed snipers which are 99% of all snipers, are not with their original bolts). So where would it fit into your list? Type 3, 4, or 5? No refurbished PU sniper can be higher on your list than 3. Remember, this is a pretty rare thing on a sniper to have all the two number sets matching.

My point to all of this (in my opinion) is: You can't toss these snipers into clear cut classifications. Some have this, other have that. Each item makes them more or less valuable. So do you have a classification for every single variation or combination of? Then there will be arguments on which features are more valuable.

Know your snipers and the different variations and know what you are looking at. That is all you need to know when buying one and estimating it's value.

One more time. (for the road).......If it wasn't a sniper when it left the arsenals of the country that owned it (that magic moment when it became a "Military Surplus" rifles on the open market), at that point if it was not in sniper configuration, then anything done to it after that point makes it a Fake or reproduction and has no business on these forums. The only one allowed to make a "sniper rifle" is the arsenal of the country that made those models. Not AIM, J&P, , Century, Molot, or Bubba in his garage. The only rifle I consider OK to place a scope back on is one that still has the open hole for the mount such as SAMCO's snipers. Because they are well marked when you buy one it is clear if it is wearing a mount and scope that it is not the original setup. If you have to "drill open" screw hole (re-snipering an exsniper) or drill any holes in the rifle, it is a fake or reproduction.

Because fakes and reproduction sniper always cause arguments on forums (not just here) we do not allow them here.

I may have made a mistake or so above, but if I did, I will correct them, but for the most part it is correct.

Dolk

PS: Could you imagine doing this for every model Mosin made? Wow I suggest some study of the refurbishment process the PU went through (and most Mosins). Then you will understand what 99% of them went through.

[finloq]

That is what is nice about the Finnish rifles. We expect that they have been refurbed to pieces. The Finns needed working rifles to defend their homes, period! It seems with Russian/Soviet rifles, many are looking for a rifle that came out of the factory, was inspected and then sent home with the local Comisar, who boxed it and saved it for his grandchildren to sell to the Americans 70 years later. Unrealistic and pure fantasy.

One of my favorite rifles is an early M28:
Russian Sestroryetsk receiver
Russian stock with Austrian use modifications
Swiss SIG barrel
French Chatellerault bolt parts
Finnish Sako cleaning rod
Finnish nosecap
Throw in some Tula and probably other Russian/Soviet arsenal parts as well.

Is it all matching, nope it's 'Finn matched'.
Is it original, no.
Is it authentic, Hell Yes!

This is some Civil Guardsman's daily use rifle, that he took home and set up against the wall by his front door. He stood a post with it, defended his nation with it and probably hunted with it. It was quite possibly the most valuable item he owned, with the exception of his plow or mule. It is my pleasure and duty to honor him and his nation by preserving it in it's current state for the next generation.
I will not shoot it as it is too delicate, but if I did, it would be as myself, not Simo Häyhä. I am happy being me, I am happy collecting what I enjoy. I do not collect as an escape from who I am.

[finloq]

Sorry, went off on a rant there.

[desdem12]

100% to what finloQ is saying and also dolk. And it doesn't matter if it is a sniper or any model the same thing holds as far different features. That is part of the fun and beauty of collecting these things is they are all different. And mostly Authentic. I enjoy it and the hunt also. Not for a catagory or someone else but for myself. It is nice to see what the other guys have and what may be available though.

[Darryl]

Sorry, went off on a rant there.

That's not a rant. It doesn't have enough words in it to qualify! Check mine out....now that's a rant!

dolk

[finloq]

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[desdem12]

For the sake of argument..that was a lego knife.

[Longcolt44]

I have one rating for all my firearms...MINE.