Newcomer trying to ID my first Mosin Nagant

Andylit · Post by **Andylit** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:02 pm

Andy here, just purchased my first Mosin Nagant at a local show. It caught my interest mostly because of the specific information the seller offered. It is supposedly a Remington contract rifle that was subsequently armory refurbished in the USSR. Obtained by a WWII soldier and brought home, stored for 60 years or so. One thing is clear. The seller was honest about the presence of old cosmoline. He cleaned it up for sale but didn't go nuts. There was still chips of cosmoline in the action and in the barrel.

I did a bit of browsing and searching various web sites in hopes of pinning down the veracity of the story. Comparing numbers, proof marks and such against the many images on the web.

I'm encountering some challenges in tracing the history because the bolt serial actually matches the barrel serial. Problem is that the barrel says 1936r with Izhevsk markings but the bolt is a Remington. With a perfectly matching number, right down to the font and the slight vertical misalignment of the 1st and last digit. How can a WWI era American made bolt have the same serial number as an apparently mid 30's barrel?

M-N 02.jpg

M-N 03.jpg

M-N 04.jpg

M-N 05.jpg

M-N 06.jpg

M-N 07.jpg

M-N 08.jpg

M-N 09.jpg

M-N 10.jpg

M-N 11.jpg

M-N 12.jpg

M-N 13.jpg

And on to the next post

Andylit · Post by **Andylit** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:18 pm

And for part 2 photos

Looks like a fair amount of mix and match

M-N 14.jpg

M-N 15.jpg

M-N 16.jpg

M-N 17.jpg

M-N 18.jpg

M-N 19.jpg

The imprints on the stock are very difficult to make out. There is a star with a year(?) and a faint circular imprint below.

M-N 20.jpg

M-N 21.jpg

M-N 22.jpg

M-N 23.jpg

M-N 24.jpg

M-N 25.jpg

Looks like parts from 2 different armories, even down to the springs in the stock.

The stock appears to be shellacked as opposed to varnished, but I can't be certain. It may just be age. All of the metal parts appear to be more of a coffee color, looking like long dried oil instead of bluing. I don't know enough about the techniques or solutions used at the time to know what I'm looking at. Cosmoline residue? Old oil? Were they using the old style "browning" method?

It does not appear to be rust. Once the cosmoline/crud is removed the resulting surface is mirro smooth brown steel with no sign of degradation or pitting.

Anyway, back to the big question. Why does the bolt serial number match the barrel number? That seems very unlikely.

JC 762 · Post by **JC 762** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:02 am

The bolts were renumbered during the refurb process. The arsenal would use what ever parts were in the pile. That is why there are parts from other makers mixed in .Your stock has a crack in the last picture ,you probably want to fix that if you intend to shoot it.

djbuck1 · Post by **djbuck1** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:29 am

If you show the entire rifle, we may be able to tell you more.

qz2026 · Post by **qz2026** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:30 am

Definitely not a Remington Contract rifle although the bolt body comes from a Remington. And the gun doesn't look refurbished either - at least I don't see any stamping to indicate this. I'd say but can't tell for sure, that you might have a Spanish Civil War survivor. I am a little confused about the bolt and how it got stamped matching to the barrel. Don't think the Spanish would do this... I suppose it's possible that a Remington bolt with the exact s/n as a '36 Izhevsk is possible

but not likely at all. Cool gun though.

Phosphorus32 · Post by **Phosphorus32** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:31 am

It’s a refurbished Izhevsk M91/30 with a mix of parts as noted above. You can see that the Remington bolt body had its original serial number ground off and was then renumbered with a stamp/die that had a different font than the one originally used to number the Izhevsk barrel. Study the 1 and 7 especially and you’ll see how different they are.

racerguy00 · Post by **racerguy00** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:10 am

The rear sight base isn't pinned like nearly all that went through refurb. I would guess it's a Spanish import based on it's date and overall look even with the unusual renumbered bolt. Unusual for a Spanish rifle that is.

qz2026 · Post by **qz2026** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:26 am

Phosphorus32 wrote:It’s a refurbished Izhevsk M91/30 with a mix of parts as noted above. You can see that the Remington bolt body had its original serial number ground off and was then renumbered with a stamp/die that had a different font than the one originally used to number the Izhevsk barrel. Study the 1 and 7 especially and you’ll see how different they are.

You have determined that it's refurbished how? Perhaps in Spain but certainly not in Russia or the Ukraine. Mixed parts mean nothing. Only that, if SCW, it was done there. Quite common.

Phosphorus32 · Post by **Phosphorus32** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:59 am

qz2026 wrote:
Phosphorus32 wrote:It’s a refurbished Izhevsk M91/30 with a mix of parts as noted above. You can see that the Remington bolt body had its original serial number ground off and was then renumbered with a stamp/die that had a different font than the one originally used to number the Izhevsk barrel. Study the 1 and 7 especially and you’ll see how different they are.
You have determined that it's refurbished how? Perhaps in Spain but certainly not in Russia or the Ukraine. Mixed parts mean nothing. Only that, if SCW, it was done there. Quite common.

I think we are just stumbling on definitions. It seems that your defining "refurbished" very specifically to mean Soviet refurbishment with a refurbishment arsenal marking. I'm using "refurbished" more broadly, as in not original as-issued and clearly worked on at a facility with some relativley sophisticated tooling available, i.e., not a field repair on the front lines. Perhaps repaired, or reworked, or assembled from parts, or specifically force-matched would be a better word or phrase.

The Remington bolt was clearly scrubbed and force-matched to the Izhevsk barrel. That's not a field repair, so I think a refurbishing facility, but it does not appear to have been a full Soviet GRAU arsenal overhaul and refurbishment. If it wasn't done by the Soviets but rather the Spaniards, as you have suggested, the "matched" bolt would certainly be very unusual, and notable.

Andylit, what import mark, if any, does your Mosin have?

qz2026 · Post by **qz2026** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:26 am

Might be a good idea to define your terms in the beginning then. When you use the generic term refurbished, the majority of people here will think Russian, not Balkan, Spanish or Romanian.

zeebill · Post by **zeebill** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:03 pm

qz2026 wrote:Might be a good idea to define your terms in the beginning then. When you use the generic term refurbished, the majority of people here will think Russian, not Balkan, Spanish or Romanian.

Maybe we ought to use went through work at a refurb depot or repair depot? It's an Ixhevsk rifle with varied parts on a Tula stock so it had to be worked on somewhere and the date sort of points to SCW work. I see a circle on there that is hard to see and maybe a clearer straight on picture might point to something of a repair depot in Russia using ratniks fine books, I am trying to learn them but the marks are so varied in my brain I need to open the book to be sure. Probably never know for sure what work was done in what country and that includes possible work here. to prepare it for sale. Bill

PS Never believe the story always by the rifle as you see it and value it no other way in the future!

Andylit · Post by **Andylit** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:10 pm

Phosphorus32 wrote:
Andylit, what import mark, if any, does your Mosin have?

There are no marks other than what you see in the photos. No BATF type serial number, nothing else to indicate importation through one of the surplus dealers, etc.

The story is that a WWII GI obtained the rifle in the 1940's and somehow got it back to the states without going through any sort of AFT or other import/registration system.

Also, I found no pencil marks or other marks inside the stock.

steelbuttplate · Post by **steelbuttplate** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:14 pm

The font on the bolt looks the same as most M-44s. I'm guessing arsenal restamp.

racerguy00 · Post by **racerguy00** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:24 pm

Before 68 no import marks were required. That's why Spanish imports lack any, they came in before that.

It's a nice rifle. The story though is most likely untrue.

Andylit · Post by **Andylit** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:19 pm

So, if I am reading all this correctly barrel and receiver were most likely manufactured in 1936 at Izhevsk.

At some point it was refurbished or rebuilt, not sure where or even if in USSR, using mix and match parts.

Old US bolt scrubbed and renumbered. Most likely at the time the barrel was manufactured? Or later?

The stock is pre-WWII, but the star imprint on the butt means.....what? Tula stock but the rear spring and both bands are Izhevsk?

With the stock marking so faint, does this mean the stock was refinished?

What about the cocking knob? The photos I've seen on various sites have the numbers flat across the back. This knob has the numbers following the perimeter of the circle. Perhaps the original knob with the old bolt, with the old Remington number?

zeebill · Post by **zeebill** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:22 pm

[quote="Andylit"][quote="Phosphorus32"]

Andylit,

The story is that a WWII GI obtained the rifle in the 1940's and somehow got it back to the states without going through any sort of AFT or other import/registration system.

Say after me everyone at a gun show is a lier and knows nothing! Repeat 100 times and imprint it on your glass lenses. That story you are believing cost you money and the seller nothing. Think of it that way if you must but don't eliminate it like you just did again. I have been at this over 40 years and I know a bit but still often listen to a dealers spiel when I should be looking and noting. It ain't easy till you realize even your friends in gun collecting may snooker you at times. It is just a part of life and the collecting secter of your life. Trust me! Oh I forgot I am a dealer at times too so disregard every thing I said. I think you catch my drift right! Bill

Andylit · Post by **Andylit** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:22 pm

JC 762 wrote:Your stock has a crack in the last picture ,you probably want to fix that if you intend to shoot it.

I do intend to shoot it, at the very least put a 100 or so rounds through it to get a feel for accuracy. Can you please make suggestions on the proper way to repair without making it look ugly? I know it won't be perfect but I want to avoid doing a hack job.

Andylit · Post by **Andylit** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:39 pm

zeebill wrote:
Andylit wrote:
Phosphorus32 wrote:
Andylit,

The story is that a WWII GI obtained the rifle in the 1940's and somehow got it back to the states without going through any sort of AFT or other import/registration system.

Say after me everyone at a gun show is a lier and knows nothing! Repeat 100 times and imprint it on your glass lenses. That story you are believing cost you money and the seller nothing. Think of it that way if you must but don't eliminate it like you just did again. I have been at this over 40 years and I know a bit but still often listen to a dealers spiel when I should be looking and noting. It ain't easy till you realize even your friends in gun collecting may snooker you at times. It is just a part of life and the collecting secter of your life. Trust me! Oh I forgot I am a dealer at times too so disregard every thing I said. I think you catch my drift right! Bill

All my hopes and dreams, crushed.

(sniffle) You cad, you!

No big sweat. I paid $250 for it. The action is smooth and locks up nice and tight. Rifling looks good, but wow is it tight. I never saw a twist like that before.

racerguy00 · Post by **racerguy00** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:15 pm

It's a 36 Izhevsk yes. And you got a good deal. That's cheaper than the going common refurb price and I'd pick yours over one of those anytime.

Post by **Longcolt44** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:44 pm

"I do intend to shoot it, at the very least put a 100 or so rounds through it to get a feel for accuracy. Can you please make suggestions on the proper way to repair without making it look ugly? I know it won't be perfect but I want to avoid doing a hack job."

The best way it to place the rifle a minimum of a 1/2 mile from, a hack saw, a sheet of sandpaper, or any other tool that is commonly used by our arch enemy Bubba. In short, leave it as is, anything not done by the last arsenal will not only ruin the history but cut the value by at least half. Shoot the hell out of it as the last soldier that had it did.

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