A reminder of why reloaders should pay attention to the law...

[awalker1829]

The United States Attorney’s Office for the District of Arizona just announced that a Mesa, Arizona resident has been criminally charged in connection with the Las Vegas, Nevada shooting.

Douglas Haig of Mesa, Arizona has been charged with “conspiracy to manufacture and distribute armor piercing ammunition without a license.” The Arizona Republic reports that Mr. Haig manufactured ammunition using equipment at his home, which he sold as a side business. Ammunition found in the hotel room of Steven Paddock was traced back to Mr. Haig, who admitted that he had sold ammunition to Mr. Paddock at a Phoenix gun show.

This should be a stark reminder to anyone who reloads as to why hobbyists should be very cautious about providing ammunition that they reload to others. If you receive money or an item of value in exchange, your activity may inadvertently classify as manufacturing and subject you to possible civil and criminal liability. Professional ammunition manufacturers maintain the appropriate License and carry insurance to protect them from financial and legal liabilities. For us hobbyists, the sure way to avoid trouble is to keep our reloads to ourselves.

As for Mr. Haig, he’s in a heap of trouble-facing prison time and financial destitution. If his legal costs to defend the criminal case doesn’t cost him his house and life savings, the legal costs associated with defending against civil liability will.

[Brake Weight]

That’s bad. Real bad. Like crack down on reloaders type bad. I did not know there was a law against doing what he did but I wouldn’t have done it either. It wouldn’t feel ‘morally correct’ selling potential cop killer ammunition to the public. Let alone a 5 minute google read it would take to learn the legality of it. Regular FMJ or hollow points maybe.

[Darryl]

You may only "manufacture ammunition (and parts of ammunition like brass or projectiles) and sell it if you have the proper Federal Firearms License. I believe a 06, 07, or 08 FFL license. Then there are many restrictions and requirements, and standards you have to be very careful of.

I looked into selling Snider bullets I was casting. Others wanted them and I could make them, but the restrictions were too great. However, I can sell them as fishing "sinkers"........ maybe. But not worth the chances.

Dolk

[awalker1829]

Indeed. I imagine that our regional gun shows will be subject to additional scrutiny from the BATFE for a while. The dumbass that was his business partner also lost 5k rounds of the ammunition in a vehicle break in here in Tucson. At least he had enough smarts to report the theft to the police. Why he had that much ammunition? According to the information that has been made public, he wanted to get into ammunition dealing. I won’t be surprised if he gets prosecuted as well.

I should also note that the BATFE examined his reloading equipment and positively matched the tool marks produced by the press and dies to tool marks found on the ammunition at the Las Vegas crime scene. His name and address were also found on a box that the ammunition was found in and his fingerprints were positively matched to fingerprints found on a couple of cartridges.

As an aside, I had the opportunity to attend a presentation by a forensic firearms and tool mark examiner as part of my job’s continuing education program. The gentleman who gave the presentation is a consultant with our local police department and had previously worked in Vermont and Canada for law enforcement agencies there. He explained in detail the various different methods of matching cartridge cases to specific firearms. That moron in Mesa had no idea that they could match the ammunition to his equipment, but they can very well do that.

[Brucifer]

Did Haig sell AP ammo to Paddock, or was it found in his house when BAFT searched his premises?

If I sold a baloney sandwich to a guy that later went on to kill a bunch of people, I'd be sure thinking of what is in my house when someone comes knocking.

[AMCHornet]

It's like loaning your car to a friend who then uses that car to plow over a crowd of people. How were you supposed to know what they intended to use your car for? What if they lied to you about their intentions? How is this any of your fault unless you suspected your friend of emotional instability?

And this is Arizona, one of the most gun-friendly states in the country.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Now some will begin to get a glimmer of an idea about why I hate to sell anything gun or ammo or blade that has my name officially attached to it somehow. I have never sold a single firearm that was purchased using my FFL, and I have never sold ammo period, I have sold damn few guns of any kind in my life. I lack faith in the public, murderous psychopaths abound amongst them. What happens to my FFL bought guns after I kick the bucket I could care less, it will be somebody else's worry.

[bunkysdad]

My nephew bought a handgun recently, and then he sold it to his buddy. It was stolen and used in a crime. I don't know the details exactly but the ATF came calling on my nephew as he was the one the gun was traced back to. As for this ammo, I imagine that the use of the term "armor piercing" was embellished by the media. Even our own member here called them "cop killer bullets" and I'm pretty sure that regardless of the type of bullets used the dealer would be in the same hot water for selling hand loaded ammo with no license. Since we are talking 5.56mm were these the common military 62 gr green tip bullets or bullets just like them?

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[Darryl]

The problem (as I see it and I'm not a lawyer) is, How does the BATF prove he sold them without a license? I'd be telling them I gave them to him free to try out. It's not illegal to give ammo away, but it is to sell it without a proper FFL license.

Also, where he made it, was it true armor piercing ammo? And is that illegal where he "made it"?

Questions his lawyer will be working through. But who needs that kind of crap?

dolk

[awalker1829]

Did Haig sell AP ammo to Paddock, or was it found in his house when BAFT searched his premises?

If I sold a baloney sandwich to a guy that later went on to kill a bunch of people, I'd be sure thinking of what is in my house when someone comes knocking.

If you read the criminal complaint, Haig admitted that he sold the ammunition to Paddock and has previously engaged in the sale of ammunition. He claimed that the ammunition he sold was manufacturers overrun-not reloaded cartridges. The FBI started that tool marks found on the cartridges were examined and matched tool marks produced by Haig’s press. It also stated that Haig sold his remaining stock before heading to the October 21 machine gun shoot for $20, claiming he did not want to be in possession of it if he got arrested on the way to the event. His associate confirmed these statements. Sure sounds like he was trying to cover his tracks.

[ksbanker]

That’s bad. Real bad. Like crack down on reloaders type bad. I did not know there was a law against doing what he did but I wouldn’t have done it either. It wouldn’t feel ‘morally correct’ selling potential cop killer ammunition to the public. Let alone a 5 minute google read it would take to learn the legality of it. Regular FMJ or hollow points maybe.

I wasn't aware that FMJ or hollow points couldn't kill cops. "Potential cop killer" is inflammatory language which directs blame at the object not the person. XM193 can penetrate soft body armor just as easily as M855a1.

This is concerning because I'd guess that nearly everyone who reloads has friends that don't reload (but shoot) and those friends want to buy ammo from their friends who do reload.

I still think this whole situation stinks...

From the newest "development" they can demonize reloaders, gun shows, tracer ammo (which was military surplus), and "armor piercing bullets".

[Brake Weight]

I would think that the Teflon coated or the high velocity frag kind would be the ‘cop killers’. A .22lr would do it as well.

[polymerase2]

This is why I won't sell any C&R purchases at a gun show unless it is to someone with a license. I don't every want the ATF to come back and check my book and have problems.

[capt14k]

This arrest is a distraction. He didn't sell or manufacture AP Ammo. The way back machine shows he was selling S193/M855 tracer ammo. Also since he had a website smammo.com is it definite he did not have a manufacturing license? If not he is screwed because on his website he touted his ammo as newly manfactured SM Ammo exclusive M855 tracer.

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[WeldonHunter]

This is what I've seen from multiple news reports regarding what Haig sold Paddock, 600rds of .308/7.62 M62 tracer made at Lake City Arsenal and 120 rounds 5.56 M196 tracer also made at Lake City Arsenal, when Paddock went to his house. What they're charging him on is Paddock supposedly bought four or five ten packs of .308/7.62 API at a gun show that they claim this guy made.

[awalker1829]

What they’re charging him with is manufacturing or distributing ammunition without a license. Federal law requires that anyone who manufactures or distributes ammunition as the means of making a living or for profit must have the appropriate federal firearms license. Forget the armor piercing crap. Haig admitted to BATFE that he operated his ammunition business as a side job. It wasn’t his primary means of making a living, but he operated it for profit. That meant that he had to have a licensed. If anyone knows his license situation, it’s BATFE.

The criminal complaint also stated that the tool marks found on the cartridges at the crime scene matched tool marks found on cartridges that were known to have been loaded in his press. You’d better figure that his press is now evidence and that a team of tool marking examiners is looking at every piece of that machine for unique irregularities that basically put that machines fingerprint on every cartridge it loads. Yes, you can examine a case against the imperfections on the dies of a reloading press and determine whether the marks are a match. That’s what they’re saying the specialists have done.

Bottom line is, no matter which way the case goes, his goose is cooked.

[Junk Yard Dog]

He forgot rule number one when confronted by authority's over anything, shut the fuck up, do not volunteer anything, request an attorney. It would seem a simple thing, keep your mouth shut, but so few people understand that simple rule. Authorities will threaten you with all sorts of bullshit hoping you will panic and start talking before a lawyer gets to you. This isn't DPRK, you are not dealing with the secret police, they can't legally wire your balls to a field generator, what they can do is bullshit you into thinking they know everything already, start you thinking they can help you ( they can, right into jail) but it is an adversarial relationship. Their job is not to help you, it is to close the book on whatever crime they are investigating. They get paid to do that, they aren't there to act in your best interest especially if you have knowingly or unknowingly fucked up. Name, ID, I have nothing to say without consulting with an attorney, be polite about it no matter what pressure they bring on you. Ammo guy like many others has talked his way right into serious charges and probably jail time, your own mouth is the most dangerous weapon the authorities can use against you.

[capt14k]

JYD nailed it. Never talk to Law Enforcement when being questioned in an investigation. They are not there to help you.

As for ATF the whole thing is B.S. The laws are Unconstitutional. The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed covers the ammo that goes in them. You shouldn't need a license to exercise a right.

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[awalker1829]

The law may be unconstitutional, but until a competent court of record interprets it to be so, it is still the law.

Remaining silent is generally good advice but don’t count on it to save you. Any competent investigator will still find you out-it’ll just take them longer. Many moons ago when I was in college, I got instruction on law enforcement interrogation methods. A good investigator will interrogate contacts that the target has. The target might clam up but if you dig carefully and long enough, you’ll find someone willing to talk.

When I was interning with a US Pretrial Service Office, I was assigned to perform the pretrial service investigation on a suspect who was brought in on a warrant from another district for armed bank robbery. He wasn’t very cooperative-only answered when he absolutely had to. He provided us his financial affidavit (used to determine if he qualified for court appointed counsel) and a personal contact-his wife. I conducted the interview via telephone as she lived a ways from the courthouse. At the outset of the interview, I informed her that the purpose of the call was to verify the information that her husband had provided. By the time the call was over, I had all the information I needed to get the judge to keep him in custody pending trial. She not only verified the information that I wanted to confirm-she unwittingly gave me a ton of information that the suspect had withheld. He never said anything about shooting his brother but she did.

As for Mr. Haig, life as he knew it is over. He’ll lose his job, house, money and most likely do some time. If his criminal defense costs don’t ruin him financially, he’ll likely lose what is left over defending civil cases. He’s probably already looking at a six figure legal defense bill-defending a federal criminal case is not cheap. Hell, in a routine state level criminal drug case, $10k isn’t unheard of for a high quality attorney to just appear at the arraignment. And unlike civil litigation attorneys, criminal defense attorneys charge up front.

[capt14k]

The law may be unconstitutional, but until a competent court of record interprets it to be so, it is still the law.

Remaining silent is generally good advice but don’t count on it to save you. Any competent investigator will still find you out-it’ll just take them longer. Many moons ago when I was in college, I got instruction on law enforcement interrogation methods. A good investigator will interrogate contacts that the target has. The target might clam up but if you dig carefully and long enough, you’ll find someone willing to talk.

When I was interning with a US Pretrial Service Office, I was assigned to perform the pretrial service investigation on a suspect who was brought in on a warrant from another district for armed bank robbery. He wasn’t very cooperative-only answered when he absolutely had to. He provided us his financial affidavit (used to determine if he qualified for court appointed counsel) and a personal contact-his wife. I conducted the interview via telephone as she lived a ways from the courthouse. At the outset of the interview, I informed her that the purpose of the call was to verify the information that her husband had provided. By the time the call was over, I had all the information I needed to get the judge to keep him in custody pending trial. She not only verified the information that I wanted to confirm-she unwittingly gave me a ton of information that the suspect had withheld. He never said anything about shooting his brother but she did.

As for Mr. Haig, life as he knew it is over. He’ll lose his job, house, money and most likely do some time. If his criminal defense costs don’t ruin him financially, he’ll likely lose what is left over defending civil cases. He’s probably already looking at a six figure legal defense bill-defending a federal criminal case is not cheap. Hell, in a routine state level criminal drug case, $10k isn’t unheard of for a high quality attorney to just appear at the arraignment. And unlike civil litigation attorneys, criminal defense attorneys charge up front.

It's still wrong. Second Amendment should be his defense. Hopefully someone like the Koch Brothers pays for the best attorneys for him. Better yet hopefully word comes down from the top to drop the persecution. If people win civil suits it will be an attack on the entire firearms community due to the lasting trickle down effects winning lawsuits would cause.

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