Japanese Type 30 (?) Carbine

[SSGTSemperFi]

So, this is brought to you via my grandfather, straight off the sands of Iwo Jima.

She was given to me many, many years ago (think: 20+ years ago) by him, when I was around the age of five or six.
As the story goes, she was taken from the deceased remains of a young soldier he went toe-to-toe with. The Imperial Japanese soldier that this was taken from jumped in a foxhole [rather, shell divot] unknowing that my grandfather was in it. It took both of them a few seconds to realize that they were sharing the same hole. The story ensues with a little hand-to-hand, that, well, needless to say, my grandfather came out on top of.

My grandfather picked up the rifle, and up the Mountain he treked, M1 in his hands, this rifle slung across his back. I've not done much research into the rifle itself (truth be told, I had forgotten about it until just a few years back as it was stored away and not pulled out until my parents' divorce was finalized and I was cleaning out the fire safe to give my "dad" his rifles.) I've been told it's a Type 30 Carbine, and what little research seems to confirm this (if it's not, by all means, please, let me know!). Unfortunately, her sling has long since rotted away, and she is missing the mum, but she holds a value to me that no amount of money could ever cover.

i'm thinking that it's a re-issue rifle, as it's craftsmanship is second to none. Beautiful steel, beautiful craftsmanship,incredible blueing quality, which tells me that she wouldn't have been a last-ditch effort production
She came with a rising sun flag that was folded and hung through the belt of said soldier, however that won't be featured as it carries the blood of the fallen young man (and, I don't currently have her, she's at my mom's house).

He's also given me a little relic of his time in Nagasaki. An Officer's brim/visor cap, and my sister has the watch of a deceased man, and the license plate... "borrowed"... from the burnt husk of a police car.

The images aren't going to be the best of quality (ancient iPhone 4S -but hey, gotta make cuts to feed my rifle addiction somehow ), but without further ado, my little piece of history (and also, very likely one of the things that may have resulted in me not being here had things gone a bit different):






And said hat:

[martin08]

It is a Type-38 carbine. With the ground mum, it is more likely to be a surrendered weapon than a captured weapon. The Japanese soldier would not have scrubbed the Mum while it was still in service, and crests weren't ground until after surrender.

[Fledge]

Nice looking rifle. I noticed the mum was ground off on the receiver, which tells me your grandfather came into the gun after the Japanese surrendered. Your grandfather was still an American hero, but his version of how he came into the rifle may be embellished slightly to amuse his grandson

[Fledge]

Ah, Martin beat me to the punch by a minute!

[Junk Yard Dog]

Nice collection, however a rifle taken at Iwo should not have a neatly ground off Mum, that was something done after the Japanese surrendered by order of Gen Macarthur. The Japanese did deface the Mum in the field if they felt the rifle was likely to fall into enemy hands. This was done by placing the edge of the bayonet across the mum and a rock struck down on it to line out the marking. Is it possible your grandfather swapped rifles in occupied Japan later on? Maybe he spotted a cleaner example as most combat used Arisakas tended to look somewhat rough, and that carbine looks very clean. I have a 44 carbine picked up in the Philippians by a GI and brought home, while it's mum is intact the rifles wood is faded like an old barn door, bluing worn to silver, very issued looking. Our boys over there loved souvenirs, but I have yet to meet a single one who fought the Germans, Italians, or especially the Japanese who respected the enemy's crap ( their words). It was just stuff to bring home to show mom and dad, give to the little brother, make a cheap hunting rifle out of or hang up on the lodge wall. They would have thought nothing of swapping things around, or winning or losing them in a craps game on the ship home. The only ground mum bringhomes I have are all from post war Japan, the intact ones are all captured before 1945. I was fortunate enough to know a great many WW1 and WW2 vets many years ago when I started collecting, I bought many items like these from them, heard the storys that went with them. By and large they thought I was nuts for wanting that old shit when in the words of one Navy vet- "why dontcha get a nice Winchester 70, better rifle on deer than that piece of Jap shit" Most were unable to conceive that anyone would want to actually collect these relics for history, didn't stop some of them from taking my money however.

[SSGTSemperFi]

I've not done a lot of digging on her. Unfortunately, the time for that has passed, directly from the source anyway. While my Grandfather is still alive (and, rather active, I might add), he doesn't even remember giving me the rifle, much less that he brought it home. Dementia is strange like that. He can remember things from his childhood as though they were yesterday, he can even recall much of his time during the war, but other things, he has absolutely no recollection of.

The story that I know goes that he picked it up (along with said flag and picture) as something to honor the guy with. My Grandpa didn't necessarily want to be there, didn't want to kill young men, but he signed up to defend his country and because it was the "right thing to do". He's been a man of Christ his entire life, and even when he went hunting, he was the type to say a prayer for the animal he killed.

Like I said, I haven't done much digging when it comes to the true origins of the rifle, but so far as I understand, when VJ day came around, and he was finally able to come home, all souvioneers had to be "checked in" so to speak, and at this time (at the request of the Imperial Japanese govt), any mums were ground off out of respect.
At least in part, this claim can be supported by the hat itself, on the underside of the brim is stamped "Nagasaki Japan Lyman M. Yarnell" (partially showcased in the final picture) The rifle also originally had a tag (not unlike a hang tag) on it stamped in much the same manner with "Iwo Jima" on it, in place of Nagasaki, but was unfortunately ruined due to to oil seeping and saturating the tag while kept in storage.

Would any of that hold validity? I've never known him to lie about anything, but as Fledge has said, it may end up being "slightly"embellished for my amusement. ;P
I know the premise of the story is true at the very least as it can be corroborated by a few guys he was there with.

When it comes to looks, I can't speak as to how it looked originally, My grandfather was a gunsmith for many, many, many years (coming up on 70 years here 2019, though he stopped actively working about 15 years ago). I know the wood finish isn't original and the bolt has been slightly modified and polished. I know he cleaned her up before he gave her to me, and the bore is very dark, rifling shows signs of heavy use, so externally, she does look a lot better than the barrel would suggest. He may well have done some very extensive work on her, i'm not sure.

[desdem12]

nice

[capt14k]

It very well could have been ground before being brought home assuming he didn't return til the end of the war. If he checked it in and filed the proper paperwork the Mum would have had to have been removed. This would mean he likely would have capture papers with the rifle.

It is a misconception that the Mums were ground by the Japanese prior to surrender. The majority of the Mums were removed by us. It was to allow the Emperor to save face. In contrast to what took place in Germany very few Japanese War Criminals were tried, convicted, and executed. That includes the Emperor of Japan who we thought was necessary for the rebuilding of Japan in our image. Now whether less should have been charged in Germany or more should have been charged in Japan is a conversation for elsewhere.

JYD is also correct regarding the field defaced Mums. This was likely done by a soldier prior to his death. Whether it was at the hands of an American Solider or Suicide. To have the mark of Emperor fall into the enemies hands would have been dishonorable. I have seen them crossed out with bayonets like JYD mentioned, rubbed out with whatever instrument available or even stamped out repeatedly with some sort of metal object. I have one like this. Will try and post picture tomorrow.

So it is very possible that your grandfather's story is true and accurate.



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[Fledge]

I like the story and the rifle. Glad grandpa passed it on to you.

[etprescottazusa91]

It's a nice rifle with some family history.

This is what the reciever and chrysanthemum should look like on a Type 38 rifle when not scrubbed.

$ type 38 crest_12.jpg

[capt14k]

Here is a stamped out Mum



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[Darryl]

The Japanese did deface the Mum in the field if they felt the rifle was likely to fall into enemy hands. This was done by placing the edge of the bayonet across the mum and a rock struck down on it to line out the marking.

[capt14k]

Anyone have any idea what they could have used to stamp out the Mum in the one I posted

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[capt14k]

Anyone have any idea what they could have used to stamp out the Mum in the one I posted

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[Junk Yard Dog]

Meat tenderizer maybe? Looks like that kind of pattern.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Edge of a coin or maybe a file?

[capt14k]

Edge of a coin or maybe a file?

Edge of coin that very well could be it. If you look outside the Mum you can see how many marks each strike made. They are almost jagged.

I sold my Arisakas with perfect Mums and kept this one because of its history. It has become a long term project getting the correct Nagoya 1st Series pieces all back together (monopod, sight wings, cleaning rod, muzzle cover).

Still looking for the matching bolt and dust cover, but it does have a correct Nagoya 1st Series bolt and cover now just not matching. Need 377 if anyone has one.

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[racerguy00]

Edge of a coin or maybe a file?

Edge of coin that very well could be it. If you look outside the Mum you can see how many marks each strike made. They are almost jagged.

I sold my Arisakas with perfect Mums and kept this one because of its history. It has become a long term project getting the correct Nagoya 1st Series pieces all back together (monopod, sight wings, cleaning rod, muzzle cover).

Still looking for the matching bolt and dust cover, but it does have a correct Nagoya 1st Series bolt and cover now just not matching. Need 377 if anyone has one.

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Was it sporterized? I had a hard time finding a non-sporter arisaka locally until recently. Lots are shaking loose now it seems.

[capt14k]

Edge of a coin or maybe a file?

Edge of coin that very well could be it. If you look outside the Mum you can see how many marks each strike made. They are almost jagged.

I sold my Arisakas with perfect Mums and kept this one because of its history. It has become a long term project getting the correct Nagoya 1st Series pieces all back together (monopod, sight wings, cleaning rod, muzzle cover).

Still looking for the matching bolt and dust cover, but it does have a correct Nagoya 1st Series bolt and cover now just not matching. Need 377 if anyone has one.

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Was it sporterized? I had a hard time finding a non-sporter arisaka locally until recently. Lots are shaking loose now it seems.

No it wasn't sportorized. It was just missing those parts. Here is some pics now.





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[Type99]

Nice type 38 carbine! The hat is a pre war era enlisted mens cap, this style replaced by the more familiar billed cap. I think this one is dated 1936.

The biggest misconception about grinding/mum removal is that no one knows the whole story and anyone who claims to is likely full of beans. There has been found little in the way of official documentation regarding the procedure and dozens of differing stories about it. Some have our guys doing the removal some have the Japanese doing it. Many facilities used electric grinders but many did not (no electric)and files, punches, hammers and chisels were used. Some guys recieved there rifles out of a stack already ground, some got to pick one out and was to do the deed themselves. Much depended on the unit, time frame, and place of occupation. During occupation there was alot of our guys being officially issued "souveniers" based on rank with EMs getting rifles and bayonets and officers getting swords, pistols and optics and an occompanying vague "capture paper" stating things like "jap rifle and bayonet" "jap pistol with holster" as more specific paper work with serial was a waste as by this point anything our guys werent taking home was melted down or dumped in the ocean. I also seriously doubt the notion that mums would be defaced before a suicidal attack, I think its fantasy. The defacement of mums has japanese military precedence but only when the rifle is to leave the service of the emperor for either use by nongovernment entities (schools, veteran associations) or to be sold abroad (siam, russia etc.) Or if your entire inventory is being seized by a foreign occupier who is interested in preserving the emperors position to ease their adminstative difficulties.
I must comment on the bayonet blade mum strike... as often repeated as it has been for decades, its pure fantasy, cant be done. A curious aquantaince tried it out on beat up sporter with a lackluster bayonet and got nowhere. Bayonets make very poor chisels.