Estate Auction Find: Mudken Type 38 Carbine

[lthilsdorf]

Found another Japanese rifle at an auction this weekend, this time mislabeled simply as "Military Rifle". I placed an absentee bid and won for $300. THe transfer fee from the gun shop the auction used was $50 though! Oh well.

The rifle itself is a Mukden Type 38 Carbine. The condition isn't quite as great as the Type 44 I found a few weeks ago. This one clearly sat in a basement or somewhere wet for far too long. I even found mouse crap in the action!! Most of it appears to be just surface rust, but the butt plate and magazine floorplate seem especially hit. I have not yet taken it out of the action, as I just made it home an hour ago. From what I see the numbers match, including the bolt, rear sight, and floorplate. Bayonet lug didn't have any numbers on it and the bolt stop seems to have a different number. Maybe that will match the assembly number under the stock? I'm not an expert by any means on which numbers coincide with what on these Type 38's.

It is missing the dust cover and the mum has been ground. Seems like there was a bit of grease and cosmoline that protected the inside of the receiver a bit. The stock appears in excellent condition too. Even still has the cartouches on the wrist, though I have no idea what they mean. Maybe someone here can explain them a bit more.

I plan on using 0000 Steel wool to remove the active rust. Obviously nothing else will be done to it and I'll be taking it slowly. I've wanted a nice Type 38 Carbine for some time, so I'm glad to also cross this one off the list. It's been a pretty good summer in terms of finding Japanese rifles at auctions, haha!

Any thoughts? Appreciate the help as awlays!

[desdem12]

Nice stock for sure. Nicer then my stock. The rest will clean up nice.

[thughes]

Use bronze wool or a copper scrubby (or something else that is softer then the steel you are trying to clean).

[Junk Yard Dog]

That's not bad, I have seen bad, you don't want to see that, yours is in normal as found condition for one of these, that will clean up easily. Dust covers are rare on these, in the field the soldiers got rid of them to cut down on noise, late in the war they simply omitted them altogether. Nice find, $50 transfer? What a guy, smart way to keep a customer.

[Cj556]

Neat T38 carbine. Hope it cleans up well.

[RazorBurn]

Use bronze wool or a copper scrubby (or something else that is softer then the steel you are trying to clean).

Another vote for using bronze wool. I also dip mine in motor oil or Kroil. For me it's easier to remove old surface rust by letting it soak in Kroil for a week or two. On parts to big to soak I just put a damp rag soaked in Kroil lying on the surface that needs the rust removed. That rifle will clean up nicely.

[Fledge]

A good cleaning and oiling will do wonders Post some pics after.

[qz2026]

I have found that Blue Wonder works very well to remove surface rust. For pitting a tooth brush will get into the nooks and crannies. It also immediately emulsifies grease. Bronze wool or a copper scrubby will also work quite well with Blue Wonder.

[lthilsdorf]

Thanks everyone! The steel wool did a good job with the surface rust without causing any issues. The buttplate and floorplate still need alot of work however.

Will that Kroil help out with that? I can't seem to find any at stores nearby.

[RazorBurn]

Thanks everyone! The steel wool did a good job with the surface rust without causing any issues. The buttplate and floorplate still need alot of work however.

Will that Kroil help out with that? I can't seem to find any at stores nearby.

I've never been able to find Kroil or Ballistol locally. I always end up ordering a bottle when I order bronze wool and other accessories from Brownells.

[TulaTom]

Try big metal 45 pad and gun oil to scrub off the rust on the buttplate.

http://www.frontiermetalcleaner.com

[lthilsdorf]

I took a few photos of this carbine cleaned up. The Kroil did some good work, but I think the butt plate and floor plate are a little beyond being cleaned with basic supplies. The active rust is all taken care of. I really like this rifle alot, and knowing it came right out of an estate in this condition is even more neat.

[millman]

An old copper penny is also good to scrub/scrape off surface
rust.

[Type99]

That cleaned up pretty well! Is the 872 on the bolt handle stamped on the top or underside? (When closed) Hoten arsenal (mukden)+ follow their own rules on proofing and serialization. With this series of carbine production the bolts were originally matched to a character number combo know as the assembly number. Often faint and tough to read, was found on the underside of Hoten bolts and the last 3of the serial was stamped on the top, visible when the bolt is closed. The safety knob should have both numbers stamped on the stem tip (a cluttered mess). The extractor and pin only gets the assembly number. Rebuilds usually are ground and renumbered with last 3 of serial on all parts though this varies depending on time frame when the work was done.

Their stocks also recieved few if any proofs on the underside, instead they are found in the right side stock fuller. Your carbine looks to me to have have possibly undergone arsenal repair which is very cool in my eyes. The give away for me was this oversized "Ko" stamp on your stock. The stock itself also shows the smaller kokura "Se" 2nd factory proof identifying its origin. In this lower position it tells us the stock is kokura made. If there is no proof on the bottom of the stock wrist (a small "ko") then the stock was a fresh replacement. If there is a proof, its probably a recycled stock.

2016-10-01 18.19.10.png

This type of oversized mark from either Nagoya or Kokura is a sign of arsenal activity and typical on any japanese rebuilt type 38 style weapons. (No proof of type 99 arsenal refurbs yet found)

Here is an oversized Nagoya "Na" seen on a type 38 short rifle between the original smaller nagoya proofs from when this stock was originally made for a long rifle.

[Longcolt44]

Cool, she's all cleaned up and ready for the dance.

[lthilsdorf]

That cleaned up pretty well! Is the 872 on the bolt handle stamped on the top or underside? (When closed) Hoten arsenal (mukden)+ follow their own rules on proofing and serialization. With this series of carbine production the bolts were originally matched to a character number combo know as the assembly number. Often faint and tough to read, was found on the underside of Hoten bolts and the last 3of the serial was stamped on the top, visible when the bolt is closed. The safety knob should have both numbers stamped on the stem tip (a cluttered mess). The extractor and pin only gets the assembly number. Rebuilds usually are ground and renumbered with last 3 of serial on all parts though this varies depending on time frame when the work was done.

Great information! My bolt is marked with just the last 3 serial number digits on the bolt handle and safety. These digits are where the assembly number would have been according to your information. I'm very certain my rifle is a rework. It almost looks like some of the old serial number on the bayonet lug is still there if you look closely. Very neat! I thought the serial number on the bolt looked crude.

Their stocks also received few if any proofs on the underside, instead they are found in the right side stock fuller. Your carbine looks to me to have have possibly undergone arsenal repair which is very cool in my eyes. The give away for me was this oversized "Ko" stamp on your stock. The stock itself also shows the smaller kokura "Se" 2nd factory proof identifying its origin. In this lower position it tells us the stock is kokura made. If there is no proof on the bottom of the stock wrist (a small "ko") then the stock was a fresh replacement. If there is a proof, its probably a recycled stock. This type of oversized mark from either Nagoya or Kokura is a sign of arsenal activity and typical on any japanese rebuilt type 38 style weapons. (No proof of type 99 arsenal refurbs yet found).

I just bought a copy of "Military Rifles of Japan" and looked up these proof marks after a member on Gunboards told me the same thing. Very interesting. I was also told about the Hoten proofs normally being in the stock fuller and there appear to be none on my stock. I was very curious about the size difference of the "Ko" stamp. Other photos I'd seen of this mark seem much smaller, so that's neat to know it's an arsenal rebuild. Until I started collecting I wasn't even aware of the Japanese rebuild program for their Type 38's.

I'm certain the parts of this rifle have been together since it was brought home. As I stated I picked this rifle up right out of the estate of a woman who had passed away a few months ago. I haven't been able to determine who brought the rifle home, as the husband was too young to have been in World War 2. He had several brothers who were however, according to their obituaries.

I must ask where you came across all this information. Was it the "Type 38" book by Francis Allan? I've been trying to find a copy myself with no luck. It sounds like a great resource, I just wish I'd been collecting Japanese rifles when it was available, haha! There isn't a great deal of information on this topic available in any concise form online. The "Military Rifles of Japan" book I picked up has been a great help for the moment.

[Type99]

Looking again I realize your picture shows the number on the underside of the bolt handle. I also missed the bayonet lug having faint remains of an old assembly number, having been ground smooth and refinished. This is a trend with kokura rebuilds as kokura had ceased numbering type 38 front bands in production.

The type 38 book is a great resource especially for the history of the system and its many unknown variants. It also makes a big expansion on the MRoJ in the sense of helping verify examples but I still find it a little short in these areas. It was a great effort that deserved better publishing. The spiral bound is ok on aller books but in the size of the type 38 book, several hundred pages, its just doesnt hold up well. Reminds me I need to get my back from a long term borrower.
As far as my sources go for this its not the type 38 book. It may have some relevant footnotes but no serious info on rebuilds. There really is nothing on the subject im afraid just that shared with dozens of fellow collectors at hundreds of shows and meetings over untold numbers of rifles not to mention emails and phone calls. As cliqued as it is to say such a thing but No internets or books can replace the experiences.

Rebuilds just fly under the radar. Many collectors who dabble in japanese rifles barely get the gyst of assembly numbers, or how the inspection marks work some are just happy to see matched numbers and look no deeper. Others see grind marks under the numbers and call them bubba'd. Often enough it is but its worth looking deeper at the whole rifle to see what other signs there may be. The oversized stock marks, unnumbered or renumbered sights as these seem to frequently be replaced as well as extra stamps in the metal above the large notch on the right side of the stock like this kokura rebuilt type 38 rifle. The blue line point to the faint old more delicate proof of the older Tokyo artillery arsenal that built the rifle and the red line point to a later Kokura arsenal 2nd factory proof "Se" (only the top half evident on this strike)

2016-10-02 11.50.11.jpg

[lthilsdorf]

That is very interesting, and I appreciate the help Type99! That will certainly be something I look out for in the future. I'd like to add a full length Type 38 in similar condition to this rifle or the other 2 carbines I picked up this summer. I haven't had luck at any shows this fall yet, but I'm hoping I'll come across something in Allentown in a few weeks.

If you have time, would you take a look at my Type 44 too? I'll link it below. It would also seem to be a rebuild and has some parts that are mismatched from the assembly number under the stock. I believe it has a different arsenal's proof marks on the stock just like my Mukden here. I saw you commented on my other Type 38 carbine a bought in early September. That one seemed to be in original shape according to you. I appreciate your input! I've loved learning about these rifles this summer.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27662

[Type99]

Youre welcome! Its been fun blowing the dust of my Japanese rifle knowledge too! Ill take a look at your type 44 and let you know what I think.

[etprescottazusa91]

Nice Type 38 Carbine, these rifles shoot really nice.