Classic Firearms

"Collectors Forum" - All Mosin Nagant are discussed here. Also the Russian and "Finnish capture" SVT38 and SVT40. This is an excellent place for new Mosin owners to ask questions. We have some of the best experts here looking forward to your questions. If you post a Mosin sniper rifle here, we may or may not move it to the sniper forum.

Preservation forum, please no altered military surplus rifles or discussions on altering in this forum. No sportsters. Please read the rules at the top of each forum
capt14k
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Re: RE: Re: Classic Firearms

Post by capt14k »

dolk wrote:Stay on topic ....... please ;mywink; .

Politics is only tolerated (and very little) if discussing 2 Amendment issues.
There are plenty of "political forums" out there if you are so inclined.

There are a lot of us that come here to "get away" from that crap.
My apologies. I did try and at least tie it into the discussion at hand and the future of the 2nd Amendment. For without the 2nd Amendment all the other amendments become weaker.

As for the future prices of Milsurps I think they are peaking now for Mosins, SKS, and Mausers. I think SVTs have already seen their peak. I think the prices of all of them will decline before rising much more. Of course they will always have value. I don't think the days of $75 rifles will ever be seen again, but I do think $150 is feasible for ones that are now selling for $250-300.

If someone is looking for value and a great shooting rifle with reasonably priced ammo Enfields and Swiss K11 and K31 are the way to go. Enfields seem to have peaked a couple years ago and the Swiss Rifles would cost 3x as much to make today as they sell for today.

If the masses start "investing" in firearms you know the peak has really been reached and a bubble pop is coming. I remember a saying from my stock trading days that went something like "when a suit is discussing an investment with a cabby its time to get out". I don't invest in firearms; I collect them. I try to buy at a price that I can break even if I sell them. In the future if they increase in value great, maybe I will be able to sell one and buy two of another.

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Junk Yard Dog
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by Junk Yard Dog »

I have been at it during several of the economy's up's and downs, the only thing I have ever seen that brought milsurp prices down was an influx of new supply. The new supply brings prices down only temporarily, nearly 40 years of this and the pattern has never changed. The lifting of GCA68 import restrictions in 1986 led to the largest influx of surplus arms in history, it's only starting to end now. Even US milsurp prices tanked at that time but now are higher than ever. The likelihood of our seeing another influx like post '86 is unlikely, government action may dampen collecting, but I don't see any slacking of demand among younger collectors. I blame these violent war video games introducing an entire generation to historic arms. I don't know shit about video games, played one once in '77 but there were no guns in it. ten years ago I showed an M1 rifle to an 11 year old and he successfully field stripped it. A bit awkwardly but he did it, were did he learn this? A video game. Monkey see, monkey want, there will always be a good market for milsurps. That 11 year old is now 21 and saving his extra cash for an M1 rifle, he already owns a Mosin.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
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capt14k
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by capt14k »

I think Ammo Prices can affect firearms prices. For example Mannlicher 8x56R.

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Junk Yard Dog
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by Junk Yard Dog »

Straight pull, they have never caught on with the bulk of collectors or shooters, always been that way here. Good for those who collect them, keeps prices lower. .303 surplus pretty much vanished by the late 90's except for that nasty POF crap yet Enfield prices are higher than ever. Reloading and commercial new ammo availability in some or the older calibers helps. 8mm Lebel, gone since the 1960's and Berthier and Lebel rifle or carbine prices are up over $400 now in most cases, or even higher. Martini Henry or Snider, surplus is unobtanium yet even that unbelievably rough junk pile that IMA and Atlanta Cutlery hauled out of Nepal has sold like hotcakes for good money. South American Mauser's in 7mm, or 7,65 Arg have a large collector following and prices on these have long been up there as with any Mauser. Lack of ammo has never slowed down collectors, we find a way.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
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B24
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by B24 »

Milsurp prices may very well drop if JYD's collection ever hits the market. I wish I had got in this
game back in the 80s when prices were low but paying for a home and raising kids took precedence.
My first Mosin a 28 Tula was $150 in March of 2013 and now they are double that. I wish the CD at
the bank was doing so well.
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thughes
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by thughes »

Junk Yard Dog wrote:Straight pull, they have never caught on with the bulk of collectors or shooters, always been that way here.
Ssshhh..... :whistle:
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awalker1829
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by awalker1829 »

B24 wrote:Milsurp prices may very well drop if JYD's collection ever hits the market. I wish I had got in this
game back in the 80s when prices were low but paying for a home and raising kids took precedence.
My first Mosin a 28 Tula was $150 in March of 2013 and now they are double that. I wish the CD at
the bank was doing so well.
Bank rates are in the toilet now. Best bets are investing in the stock market through funds unless you are really knowledgable about investing or working for an employer with a traditional, defined benefits plan that is adequately funded (if you can find one). 401k's are better than nothing, but require the employee to make certain that they pay into it regularly and not all 401k plans are equal. My firearms are for collecting, not investments per se. I'm fortunate that the agency that I work for pays into the Arizona State Retirement System. It consistently ranks as one of the top public retirement systems in the nation due to the fact that it has always been sufficiently funded and properly managed. There may be changes in the future for new hires, but us old hands are locked into the ASRS defined benefit pensions. I'll be eligible for full state retirement at age 54/55. I can take early retirement at age 51/52 and take a slightly reduced monthly pension or retire later and get a higher monthly pension. Some of the old timers I knew worked as long as they could. They made good money, had good health benefits and reveled in the thought that they could quit anytime they pleased.

Getting back to the subject, there are still deals to be had but not from the big corporate merchants. You gotta do some research and look for them.
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MosinGunner1102
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by MosinGunner1102 »

Just received the rifle... 1927 Izhevsk, very interesting markings, hour and a half of cosmoline cleaning lol. Will post many pictures tommorrow stay tuned!
1941 VKT Finnish M39 (Izhevsk Reciever 1905) "Serena"
1927 Izhevsk Mosin Nagant 1891/30 (Updated Dragoon) "Алина"
1938 Tula Mosin Nagant 1891/30 "Надежда"
1945 Izhevsk M1944 Carbine " Сáша"
capt14k
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Re: RE: Re: Classic Firearms

Post by capt14k »

Junk Yard Dog wrote:Straight pull, they have never caught on with the bulk of collectors or shooters, always been that way here. Good for those who collect them, keeps prices lower. .303 surplus pretty much vanished by the late 90's except for that nasty POF crap yet Enfield prices are higher than ever. Reloading and commercial new ammo availability in some or the older calibers helps. 8mm Lebel, gone since the 1960's and Berthier and Lebel rifle or carbine prices are up over $400 now in most cases, or even higher. Martini Henry or Snider, surplus is unobtanium yet even that unbelievably rough junk pile that IMA and Atlanta Cutlery hauled out of Nepal has sold like hotcakes for good money. South American Mauser's in 7mm, or 7,65 Arg have a large collector following and prices on these have long been up there as with any Mauser. Lack of ammo has never slowed down collectors, we find a way.
I respectfully disagree that ammo prices have no effect. Enfield prices lag behind those of other Milsurps such as Mausers and Springfields. However there was a slight increase in prices and interest when Cheaper Than Dirt sold a whole bunch of HXP ammo two years ago. I think Enfields are a great value because rarely do they surpass $400 in price and many times can be bought for $250. Even RC Mausers are not that cheap. I don't know much about the Berthier Prices. Argentine Mausers are some of the cheapest South American Mausers you can buy, but also one of the best. The only ones that sell for less are the 1908 Brazilian and maybe 1895 Chilean. However I don't think it is because of ammo prices when it comes to them. 8x56R Mannlichers can be bought for as low as $100. Yes there are other factors than ammo prices, but I think Ammo prices do have an inverse affect.

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djbuck1
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by djbuck1 »

To quote JYD from an earlier thread:

"Who cares what the refurbs will be worth ten years down the road? I sure as hell don't and I have a lot of them. I never in my life bought any antique with an idea to what it would be worth "someday" If I wanted to invest my money for a healthy return one day I would have bought more gold, silver, copper, and platinum, in ingots and buried them someplace.

I buy antiques because I appreciate the history they represent, I buy something because I want it, if I want it bad enough I pay a lot for it."

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Junk Yard Dog
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by Junk Yard Dog »

Never compare the prices of any other milsurp to that of German Mausers or especially US milsurps in the USA. The aforementioned are the most popular firearms in history and will always command a higher price than anything else. I recall the HXP ammo, but it was not as numerous or as cheap as the WW2 and post war British stuff I was buying in the late 80's. South American Mauser's are selling in the $350-$800 range depending on what it is and condition, remember that I bought these for as little as $45 just 25 years ago. Milsurp collectors aren't like the rest of the gun owning population. We beeline for the rusty musty relic on a table full of brand new AR's or 1911's. We will haggle over something so crusted with dirt it's hard to tell what it was, and do it standing over a table full of spotless sporters that we barely notice are there. We will buy these relics without knowing what it is yet, and without even a passing thought to what ammo it uses. This describes me at the shows years ago. Milsurp collectors think nothing of trading new guns, or at least recent sporter type guns for ancient relics with names we can't even pronounce let alone spell. I bought my first milsurp at a backyard tag sale 35 years ago for $25 and had no idea what it was, if it would shoot, or what it would shoot. Years later I learned I had a Swiss 1869-71 Vetterli that used the unobtainable .41 Swiss rimfire, news that the cartridges went out of production in 1940 didn't bother me in the least or stop me from acquiring 8 more of them over the years. Today that rifle sells for around $450-$600 and can only be fired with a bolt centerfire conversion and homemade ammo, something most owners will never get around to doing. You have to understand the milsurp collector before you understand how the market for these rifles works. I am not talking about the guy who gets one rifle so he can blast away with cheap surplus ammo. You can always tell a real milsurp collector, he's the guy at the gunshow who's head swivels around as if on ball bearings the moment you walk into a show carrying something rusty and crusty. He's the guy who would use cosmoline or GI bore cleaner as aftershave if it didn't give him a rash, and he does use it to perfume his work shop. He's the guy who shows up to a shoot with something nobody recognizes, and if asked can provide a level of detail about it's history and construction that would stun black rifle users who mostly don't even know who first designed what they shoot. This is the guy who knows it will take him several days or weeks to clean his new precious...and doesn't care, in fact he loves the prospect.

I come up in a time when misurp users were common enough, they were all called Bubba and used cut down stock Mausers to hunt. At that time milsurp collectors were few in number, and all pretty much considered insane by the rest of the shooting public. What kind of idiot wants that old shit when they could have a nice Winchester 70? Worse yet they wouldn't even make an effort to sporterize what they had and gave grief to Bubba's who did. We were a tiny minority of gun owners and were made fun of when spotted paying money for "old junk" Today the collecting population has grown probably 50 times as large if not more so. The internet and cable TV along with movies and video games sparked an interest in history and people want to own a tangible piece of that history. That's not going anywhere and I expect it will grow. The entertainment industry is out of new ideas, and the public will soon tire of seeing old movies made over with dumber actors. They have been, and will continue to mine history for story's and these are mostly about war, history is a pretty bloody place. How many US milsurp collectors were created by the cable mini series Band Of Brothers just by itself? Todays milsurp collector has what we diden't have back then, information, and information just a few key clicks away thanks to the internet, what once took me years to discover now takes seconds. The internet has also eased the search time for any milsurp , I had to pound ground at hundreds of shows and flea markets back in the day to ferret out the milsurps I wanted. Decades of time spent searching that now can be accomplished in a few hours on Gunbroker. Todays collectors will never know how easy they have it if they weren't there back then. Money is the least of the issues to a collector, money can be acquired any number of ways, but finding that long sought after second variation of the third revision of the fourth generation 1856 Snagglehower dragon shooting rifle.....this is the shit we live for, who cares what it costs :)
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
capt14k
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by capt14k »

Now that I do agree with you 100%. It is much easier today for collectors of anything. My collecting of Milsurps is obviously infantile compared to yours. However I think we may both be correct in our statements.

When talking about a Milsurp Collector who doesn't care if the Rifle shoots and just the history of it, ammo prices have no bearing.

I am the Milsurp Collector who buys one to shoot it, but ammo prices have no bearing on my collecting either. If they did I certainly wouldn't be buying French and Japanese Rifles.

My first foray into collecting was sportscards. I got out of sportscards when professional grading starting becoming popular. No longer could you hold the card in your hand and hark back to the days when kids flipped them. People were paying to have them graded and put in a sealed plastic slab. To me it seemed silly and took the fun out of haggling for a particular card needed to complete a 1954 Bowman Set.

When I started collecting Milsurps I told myself I am not going to just buy them and store them away. If I don't shoot it I won't keep it. I eventually made a one handgun one rifle exception.

I try and buy matching numbers rifles in good condition with excellent bores. However as long as everything on the rifle is original or done at an Arsenal I am fine with it, whether it is a re-barrel or a stock repair. I don't clean the stocks with anything other than a damp rag and I don't use steel wool. I think Sporters are just plain ugly.

There is another class of Milsurp "collector" that tries to "pretty" up the rifle and gets them "fixed". Constantly flipping them to upgrade their personal collection and make a dollar on the ones they made look "better". I want no part of that.

Then there is the casual collector. That is the one I think that is most affected by ammo prices and availability. They are the ones who buy from Classic then complain afterwards. If they have never read a thing about Classic I guess I can understand their complaints. However today anyone that is capable of logging into a forum should at least run a quick Google search before dealing with any business. So the people that complain IMO are the ones who knew it was a gamble and lost.

For both good and bad I think it is the more casual collector and companies like Classic that are driving current prices, not the hardcore collectors. I think the cheaper Mosin Ammo and cheaper prices of Mosins is what lured the casual collector to them. Now they are driving up the prices of them. If 7.62x54r ammo suddenly doubles in price, I think it will cause a pullback in Mosin prices.

I do think the sudden appearance of the HXP .303 British Ammo helped renew interest in Enfields, for a short period of time. I have to admit though I am perplexed why Enfields seem to be much less popular than other Milsurps. They have plenty of history, there are plenty of variations to collect, they are extremely accurate, and many were sporterized making untouched ones less plentiful.

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bunkysdad
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by bunkysdad »

I've read through this whole thread and now the rifle from Classic is delivered, and is a as advertised specimen, so all of the worries should be over with by now. So where are the pictures? It sounds like you definitely got yourself a Dragoon era refurb. Looking forward to seeing it.
As for the HXP British ammo that popped up from Cheaper than Dirt. Wasn't that a bargain? I bought nearly 500 rounds for under a hundred bucks, and it is reloadable! It sure peaked my interest in Enfields. :)

looking for 8mm Mauser, 7.5 Swiss, and 7.62x54R brass
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MosinGunner1102
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by MosinGunner1102 »

bunkysdad wrote:I've read through this whole thread and now the rifle from Classic is delivered, and is a as advertised specimen, so all of the worries should be over with by now. So where are the pictures? It sounds like you definitely got yourself a Dragoon era refurb. Looking forward to seeing it.
As for the HXP British ammo that popped up from Cheaper than Dirt. Wasn't that a bargain? I bought nearly 500 rounds for under a hundred bucks, and it is reloadable! It sure peaked my interest in Enfields. :)

looking for 8mm Mauser, 7.5 Swiss, and 7.62x54R brass
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1941 VKT Finnish M39 (Izhevsk Reciever 1905) "Serena"
1927 Izhevsk Mosin Nagant 1891/30 (Updated Dragoon) "Алина"
1938 Tula Mosin Nagant 1891/30 "Надежда"
1945 Izhevsk M1944 Carbine " Сáша"
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MosinGunner1102
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by MosinGunner1102 »

Also I can't help but notice the whole bottom of my cocking knob has been shaved off for clearance issues lol
1941 VKT Finnish M39 (Izhevsk Reciever 1905) "Serena"
1927 Izhevsk Mosin Nagant 1891/30 (Updated Dragoon) "Алина"
1938 Tula Mosin Nagant 1891/30 "Надежда"
1945 Izhevsk M1944 Carbine " Сáша"
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Fledge
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by Fledge »

MosinGunner1102 wrote:Also I can't help but notice the whole bottom of my cocking knob has been shaved off for clearance issues lol
That is normal.
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MosinGunner1102
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by MosinGunner1102 »

Fledge wrote:
MosinGunner1102 wrote:Also I can't help but notice the whole bottom of my cocking knob has been shaved off for clearance issues lol
That is normal.
is it? Never seen t before
1941 VKT Finnish M39 (Izhevsk Reciever 1905) "Serena"
1927 Izhevsk Mosin Nagant 1891/30 (Updated Dragoon) "Алина"
1938 Tula Mosin Nagant 1891/30 "Надежда"
1945 Izhevsk M1944 Carbine " Сáша"
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Junk Yard Dog
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by Junk Yard Dog »

That's normal enough.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
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MosinGunner1102
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by MosinGunner1102 »

Junk Yard Dog wrote:That's normal enough.
With a mosin, anything's possible...
1941 VKT Finnish M39 (Izhevsk Reciever 1905) "Serena"
1927 Izhevsk Mosin Nagant 1891/30 (Updated Dragoon) "Алина"
1938 Tula Mosin Nagant 1891/30 "Надежда"
1945 Izhevsk M1944 Carbine " Сáша"
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bunkysdad
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Re: Classic Firearms

Post by bunkysdad »

I see that this is the one that just went up in the showcase. Good deal there buddy.
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