Finnish M27 in strange cloths

[zeebill]

Have on hand a Finnish M27 which may have been shortened a bit and is for sure in a 91/30 Finnish stock. These are not unseen and I have seen at least one other M27 almost like this one in the past posted a few years ago at Gun Boards. The key factor here is the import markings are all stamped in the very short distance between the front sight and the front of the stock wood. It is CAI and ST ALBANS VT M27 and is all stamped above the wood line. There were some of these that were judged humped a few years back when the stampings were below the wood line indicating they were done before the action was in a stock or at least the hand guard was removed. I have some other questions but I will address them later after telling the story of what I have here.

It is a Tikka M27 from 1932 which had many made and seems to me to be the easiest year to find for some reason. The serial is 51317 and the bolt is Finn matched while the mag plate is scrubbed and the butt plate is plain mixed around with a lot of helter skelter numbers on it none really matching and an Izhevsk marking on it. There a very simple 7 (matching the last number of the serial) in the left hand finger groove with crossed cannons and a Z on the right side of the butt stock. Most of the bolt parts are Tula and it has a winged connector bar with 317 on the edge to match the last of the serial number too. The under side of the tang is Tula marked with a 1916 date on it and we will talk more on this later. Nice 2 piece war time spliced lower stock with lighter like new hand guard from again a Finnish 91/30 originally. The barrel channel has been worked to make the action fit "Fairly" well. Again we will talk later on this point. The bore is well worn but clean after some heavy duty work. The barrel shows wear marks of it having been fitted at one time with a shorter stock and this current stock covers them somewhat. The trigger and sear are a one piece pinned unit giving it a great trigger pull and one slick acting rifle. The front sight is a one machined unit from an M28 or at least later rifle. The rear sight has the slide guides on the sides and the screwed on Finnish rear V-grove of improved sights. I thought this to be a somewhat earlier rifle and it appears I maybe right about 1/3 of the way into 1932.

The barrel badge plate has a D for the improved chamber for the later ammo of Russian descent, SA for the Army ownership, and the F for the Chamber configuration design. It has the Finnish sling swivels and the proper Finnish cleaning rod which looks strange due to the longer stock of 91/30 origin. All in all a slick Finnish M27 with all the bells and whistles it should have.

Now my questions or points of maybe contention? The action has matching Finnish assembly numbers on the receiver and the barrel and the 7 on the finger groove of the stock indicating I have a unit here. It also has a middle shim in the stock making the action prone to rocking in the stock. So I have seen this before and when you put the thing together you make the barrel float in the stock by taking down the rear action screw first and then tightening the front one. If you do that in this case (which I did) the hand guard really does not fit as well as most Finnish ones do and it is a real bitch to get the normal 91/30 hand guard springs in place. Plus one side or the other shows quite a space between the hand guard and the fore stock wood. Not normal for Finnish assembly and craftsmanship. As I said the tang on the action has stamps showing the Tula hammer and 916. There are no corresponding impressions on the tang wood area of the stock. The only impression of any kind is some sort of circle which seems covered by some sort of finish. Now maybe they tightened the front screw and just snugged the rear short of making it touch the wood? I don't know the answer but I would say the situation happened at a Finnish armory at least. That and the fact that we know it has a later replacement Finnish stock make this rifle at least show a few questions we can only draw guess type answers too.

I thought at first this rifle may have been shortened but the 91/30 stock threw me way off and later found this rifle to be spot on in length. Needless to say we need to get pictures of this baby online and maybe if Racer reads this he will bring his fine camera ability down in an upcoming visit to pick a rifle up and I can prevail in his good nature and get some online for you folks. Different sort of rifle for you all to look at and enjoy when Racer or Joe gets time to picture things. These mismatches usually date back to times when the Finns needed rifles in field one way of the other but I don't think this one is that case. Looks weird to see an area of about 3 fingers where we normally have five or more. Enjoy reading and later looking at a somewhat normal Finnish anomaly. Bill

[Fledge]

I'd be interested in seeing those pictures. I am looking forward to it.

[joe7170]

Damn Bill you should write a book

Yeah there's a lot of mysteries here with this one, I hope we can find out something, but who knows like most of the stuff we have sorted from Kevin's we end up scratching our heads more after we do find out something about it.

i'll get pics next trip, if racer doesn't. Your technology inclined pals won't let you down

[Junk Yard Dog]

Racer, Joe, buy him a camera for his birthday, he has one this year sometime, then teach him how to use it, don't leave until he has mastered this very simple device. Eat a lot while you are there and drink all his beer, that will add incentive to learn quickly before the grocery bill runs him into the poorhouse.

[Fledge]

Eat a lot while you are there and drink all his beer, that will add incentive to learn quickly before the grocery bill runs him into the poorhouse.

[Darryl]

As they say......"it don't exist unless you post photos of it.".

[NLMosin]

Damn Bill you should write a book

....wasn't that long enough to qualify?

[racerguy00]

Racer, Joe, buy him a camera for his birthday, he has one this year sometime, then teach him how to use it, don't leave until he has mastered this very simple device. Eat a lot while you are there and drink all his beer, that will add incentive to learn quickly before the grocery bill runs him into the poorhouse.

If I weren't on a tight schedule I would have.
I'll get the pics up asap. It's an interesting rifle for sure.

[joe7170]

Racer, Joe, buy him a camera for his birthday, he has one this year sometime, then teach him how to use it, don't leave until he has mastered this very simple device. Eat a lot while you are there and drink all his beer, that will add incentive to learn quickly before the grocery bill runs him into the poorhouse.

Bill already had a birthday this year, his fridge is empty, and he has no beer, he goes out to eat

If he could take pictures I wouldn't have a excuse to drive down to his place all the time and fondle guns. Not sure what he'll do when i find a job again

[Fledge]

Not sure what he'll do when i find a job again

Probably refill his fridge

[zeebill]

Not sure what he'll do when i find a job again

Probably refill his fridge

No that will not happen you see I have it figured out I can eat much cheaper with fresher food if I eat nothing at home. About a year ago I took two large trash bags and totally emptied my Fridge and have done nothing to refill it since. I keep a loaf of frozen bread some all fruit jelly or jam and nothing other than out of date coffee, tea, and condiments which you use at your own risk. I have canned soup of store variety and oatmeal and tuna fish in cans. This has solved my snacking and weight problems real easy. I am too cheap to eat much out so I save money from the vast amounts of food I used to buy and throw out. Ever try and cook healthy for one? It just isn't possible! I eat smaller portions when I am out and save the left overs for meals the next day. There it is the secret to having gun money if you are cheap and want to collect guns.

JYD has never tried to train a technology challenged man. I am part Neanderthal, Polish, and hard headed to boot. Plus you have to understand Mom never let me have sharp things when I was a kid and both of my ex-wives made sure I stayed far away from a camera. I am so good with a camera that I could cut the heads off of the medusa, all of them I am afraid. If I see a camera I head the other way before some asks me to snap a pic for them. Joe had me hold his for a second on a recent trip and it actually scared me. I figured I know I am going to break or drop this thing some how!

The length of my posts goes long because I take no pictures and I want to convey things so people see them. I also live alone and since the cat passed away I do my talking to you poor people. I apologize if I get long winded but I am getting old and heck it could be my last word for all we know?

Race driver stopped past and took quick pictures and picked a gun and some parts up and beat feet north again to keep his busy schedule from being shredded. By the way he showed some pictures of his new baby and man he makes pretty kids with his Wife! He has a smiling and pretty little girl. Wait till she starts dating Dad it will make you remember what you were like and you will want to kill her dates!!!!! Point to remember always clean an AK or AR when a new dater comes a courting! Thanks for the pictures Dave and it was good seeing you again! Bill

[Junk Yard Dog]

I have a rotary phone, drive a 1920's car, I wear a mechanical pocket watch, I do not own a cell phone or other hand held electronic gizmo communications device, I still wear a real hat when out in public and I put on a suit for funerals, I own and still use a mechanical typewriter, I play real records on a wind up phonograph, I shoot flintlock muskets with ease. This computer and the digital camera are the most modern devices I own and use, only because someone convinced me I could make money selling shi.....stuff on it in 2005. That's pretty much all I know how to do with these devices, you would have to look hard to find a more tech challenged man, I can't even set the auto record on my VCR. I feed myself, I just don't buy or keep crap in the house, eggs, bacon, unsweet tea, cheese, raisins, spam, sandwich meats I have, no sugar treats or I would eat them all right now. I save my eating out for when I want a steak.

[racerguy00]

It's been a heck of a long day. Now that I have a few minutes it's time to post some photos. I'll let Bill dissect the photos for everyone. It's an interesting rifle for sure. The import mark location sure seems to indicate this rifle was marked while in this configuration.



























It was great to see you again as always Bill, thanks again.

[Fledge]

Never saw that before. Great written description Bill.

[joe7170]

Not sure what he'll do when i find a job again

Probably refill his fridge

No that will not happen you see I have it figured out I can eat much cheaper with fresher food if I eat nothing at home. About a year ago I took two large trash bags and totally emptied my Fridge and have done nothing to refill it since. I keep a loaf of frozen bread some all fruit jelly or jam and nothing other than out of date coffee, tea, and condiments which you use at your own risk. I have canned soup of store variety and oatmeal and tuna fish in cans. This has solved my snacking and weight problems real easy. I am too cheap to eat much out so I save money from the vast amounts of food I used to buy and throw out. Ever try and cook healthy for one? It just isn't possible! I eat smaller portions when I am out and save the left overs for meals the next day. There it is the secret to having gun money if you are cheap and want to collect guns.

JYD has never tried to train a technology challenged man. I am part Neanderthal, Polish, and hard headed to boot. Plus you have to understand Mom never let me have sharp things when I was a kid and both of my ex-wives made sure I stayed far away from a camera. I am so good with a camera that I could cut the heads off of the medusa, all of them I am afraid. If I see a camera I head the other way before some asks me to snap a pic for them. Joe had me hold his for a second on a recent trip and it actually scared me. I figured I know I am going to break or drop this thing some how!

The length of my posts goes long because I take no pictures and I want to convey things so people see them. I also live alone and since the cat passed away I do my talking to you poor people. I apologize if I get long winded but I am getting old and heck it could be my last word for all we know?

Race driver stopped past and took quick pictures and picked a gun and some parts up and beat feet north again to keep his busy schedule from being shredded. By the way he showed some pictures of his new baby and man he makes pretty kids with his Wife! He has a smiling and pretty little girl. Wait till she starts dating Dad it will make you remember what you were like and you will want to kill her dates!!!!! Point to remember always clean an AK or AR when a new dater comes a courting! Thanks for the pictures Dave and it was good seeing you again! Bill

I'm just gonna laugh and shake my head, this is the bill I really know!

At the risk of bill killing me for telling you all, this isn't the only cut down critter we have run into either.

[Junk Yard Dog]

This isn't that surprising when you think about it. Of all the Finn built rifles the M27 had a nasty habit of getting it's forend snapped off with some regularity. The bayonet mount was weak, the forend too thin to support it, even the popsicle stick upgrade wasn't that much of an improvement.

[Teleoceras]

I have to admit that THAT is interesting!

The Finnish would never waste a perfectly good rifle and I love the way that they rebuilt this one! Thanks for sharing!

[Tredegar]

I once has a Sestroryetsk M-91 on a 91/30 stock. The barrel looked way too long.

[Longcolt44]

Very interesting M27 Bill, a real puzzle. I asked all my M27's about this rifle and they were all very closed mouth. The cats were busy grooming themselves so no help there.

[zeebill]

Very interesting M27 Bill, a real puzzle. I asked all my M27's about this rifle and they were all very closed mouth. The cats were busy grooming themselves so no help there.

I'm getting about the same help on this rifle around here too!

Have a Finn M91 that lives in a beautiful Finnish 91/30 stock so I know this kind of this happened and over there too! Never heard any Finnish members make comments about this and would love to hear their thoughts.

Not the real big space on the one side of the rifle between the hand guard and the rifle fore stock. This is because the rifle sits so far up on the barrel channel to try and float it in the barrel channel. By the way there is older work on the stock in the barrel channel opening it up a bit. It is not fresh wood work like some of the Molots I have seen seem to have.

Note the lonely 7 stamped in the left finger groove which is the last number in the serial number. Again the rifle's serial number appears to be about 1/3 of the way into the production under that year stamping so it is early. The winged connector with the partial serial is sort of neat too in that it is sort of semi blued or maybe has been exposed to heat?

Did some more work on the bore and it shows a lot of wear and use. Wonder if it served in this present stock? The oil or grease on it was really showing signs of the heat it went through in the attic and was really crusty to remove and make the action work smoothly again. That one piece trigger really makes for a nice trigger pull once it was cleaned up and working again. It is one of the first units of them that the pin slid easily out and I should have taken pics to show how they are made. That is all Finnish construction and fabrication and so well made.

Thanks again Dave and glad your long trip went well too! Bill