Smith Carbine: Original Load Data?

[Earl Burlin]

Hello all! I am thinking about buying a Smith carbine replica from Pietta. I understand that Dixie Gun Works sells black plastic cases for these rifles that look similar to the originals, but they only hold about 35 grains of powder when topped with a .515" 360 grain bullet, firing the load at about 750 FPS. I remember reading that original Smith carbines used 50 grains of powder, and would fire the same bullet to about 950-1000 FPS.

I am wondering if anyone knows the true load data for original Smith carbine cartridges? If they really did use 50 grains of powder back then, why are today's cases limited to just 35 grains of powder? I'll have to admit that power drop is one reason that I'm hesitant of ordering a Pietta Smith carbine... I would want it to have the same ballistics as an original.

If any Smith carbine shooters are out there, please let me know if you have the answer. Thanks!

[Junk Yard Dog]

The Pietta carbine is made with modern steel of a quality and known strength that the original Smith manufacturer could only dream of. Pietta has been in the business of making firearms for many years, and they build a high quality product, I would trust their repop with any load the original would handle and more. I don't recall the original load, but 50 grains would be in the ballpark as this was the accepted load of most service rifles at the time, 50-60 grains Springfield's, Enfield's, even the Spencer. I once had a guy call me and ask if I could help him ID a couple of rifles he found in his attic, when he got here he pulled two original Smith's out of a box. He wasn't selling, trust me, I tried.

The Italian makers, no matter Uberti, Pietta, Euroarms, or whoever, they always downplay the full house load. This is for liability reasons, they don't want first time shooters getting carried away, plus 35 grains is a perfectly good plinking load. Plinking is all most owners will ever do with these rifles.

[Earl Burlin]

The issue I have with this is not that the recommended load is 35 grains, it's that the modern reproduction cartridges made for these gun will only hold a maximum of 35-40 grains of powder, and that's with a grease groove poking out. I don't care that 35 grains is a goof plinking load, I don't want a "plinking load"... I want the original, historically correct 50 grain load.

[thughes]

These are good for 45 gns: http://www.lodgewood.com/Smith-Brass-Ca ... _p_28.html

[musketjon]

The original load was 50 grains of rifle powder (2F by todays standards). I have an original and I shoot the 50 grain loads with it. I don't know if they're still in business or not but The Cavalry Shop sells/sold white nylon Smith cases that hold a full 50 grain load. My Smith will shoot 3 shot clover leaf groups all day long at 50 yards. I did have to replace the front blade with a taller one for target work. Feel free to PM me with any questions you may have. I've been shooting mine for almost 40 years so I'm pretty familiar with it. Next to the Maynard, they are the two most popular carbines for Civil War live fire shooting, at least out here on the left coast. If you obtain the proper size reamer, you may be able to ream out the black tubes for the full 50 grain load. I have a boat load of them but haven't used any yet. I've still got a half a boat load of the Cav Shop tubes.
Jon

[Junk Yard Dog]

The issue I have with this is not that the recommended load is 35 grains, it's that the modern reproduction cartridges made for these gun will only hold a maximum of 35-40 grains of powder, and that's with a grease groove poking out. I don't care that 35 grains is a goof plinking load, I don't want a "plinking load"... I want the original, historically correct 50 grain load.

You better either get to like it or learn how to correctly ream out one of the repop casings so it works without damaging the case, rifle or you. Option two is go on Gunbroker, buy the original Smith cartridge I saw there earlier today for $149, dismantle it and take the case to a machinist who can run you off some exact copy's using the original as the template. Definitely an expensive option, but one that would yield the best results.

[Earl Burlin]

I messaged Dixie Gun Works about offering some of there black plastic cases that have been made to hold the correct 50 grain charge of black powder. We'll see what they have to say.

I know mouse pipsqueak loads are all the rage these days (see CAS for more info) but I am interested in an original load.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Such loads are not in the rage anywhere that I am aware of, they are however a necessity when dealing with a large influx of untrained new black powder weapon owners entering the hobby. That is the reason behind the recommendations made by the manufacturers of the repop guns for lower loads and why they do things like ship new cartridge cases that will hold these lower loads only. Recent years have seen a great deal if interest in historical weapons reproductions, and these reproductions are now available in greater variety than ever before. The makers know that most of their buyers will be FNG's who will have only the guide book that comes with the new gun to show them how to safely handle the weapon. These rifles are not like a cartridge milsurp were the rounds will be arsenal made to all the same spec and come out of the spam can ready to go, you can't overload the Smith cartridge, but you can overload a Springfield rifle musket, or a Hawkin pistol. Correction, you can overload a Smith cartridge if you did something like try and stuff it with FFFFG powder, stick with FFG and retain your face. The maker gives you that restricted cartridge because they want you to learn the rifle with an easy load before you start pounding away with the full house load. For some people it's also a matter of economy, powder is expensive, I never gave a rats ass about that myself, if I can't afford more powder I just shoot less, not tailor my loads to use less powder. Many people do shoot the lower loads in these repops, they either have no real need to use the heaviest charge as the case with the CAS people, or they never learn that the load they use is not the maximum the weapon will handle. Of course with the repops like the Smith that use the restricted cartridge case not all owners will have the tools and skills to safely alter the case to accept more powder.

[Earl Burlin]

I found some chronograph data where someone used 30 grains of 3FG Swiss powder under the original 360 grain bullet and got 929 FPS.

I think with 35 or so grains of the same powder, I'd be able to get the velocity up to 975 FPS or so. Maybe even 1000 FPS. That would equal the ballistics of the original cartridges that were loaded with 50 grains of rifle powder. Today's hotter, finer sporting powders like Swiss do seem to be able to give the original loads a run for their money even while using less powder. This is good news.

I think I might pick one of these up now that I know that the reproduction plastic cases can be loaded to near original ballistics.

[musketjon]

3F black powder will give slightly higher pressure/velocity than an equivalent charge of 2F. The 35 grain load of 3F will be very close to a 50 grain load of 2F.
Jon