M1 Garand people come in have a gripe...

[Junk Yard Dog]

I began to suspect Uncle was running short of cash the first time I handled an M16.

[redhat10]

JYD, yes, after shooting steel and wood rifles, the M-16 was" made by mattel for colt"...Unbelievable problems for a combat rifle..

[jones0430]

The M16'was a response to battle conditions, similar to the response by the Soviets when trending first to the M44, then the SKS.

[bunkysdad]

My only experience with anything resembling a M16 was years ago when my brother bought a Colt AR15 A2 sporter and I had so much fun with it. Then I have shot friends M4 carbines, and maybe my fave is another buddy that has a pair of Armalite AR10'S in 308. Personally I love the plastic rifles for a fun day of shooting.

[rayjd2]

I trust my -15, but I would comfortably trust my 91/30 in an Olympic pole vault. And for rat hunting.

Wood and Steel. I like em.

Plastic and Alloys. I like em too.

For a target rifle? Plastic every time, it doesn't warp.
F&S tested that earlier this year, wood after a 24hr soak shot 7" down and right. Plastic shot dead on.

Call me a utilitarian, I choose what's best for the situation.

But I'd never butcher an M1, or Mosin, or Mauser, or anything!

AR is a different story, it's designed to be Lego-ey.

[King Johhny]

I consider myself a shooter. yet I still don't get why they want to swap out parts and such. As long as it goes bang when I pull the trigger and works fine I am happy. I wouldn't spend all the extra money just to make it look nice. Guess just different folks...

[sapishka]

Good day gentlemen ,im a cmp guy on those forums but mostly seel needed items or buy parts that are needed on a rare occasion .The M1 Garand and the stocks ..ok everyone IS trying to buy and sell original or rare or certain cartouched stocks .the price for a 43 Garand as being sold there today is now at 399.00 ,another ultra rare early is 1500.00 ,things such as this .the idea is to restore these back to WWII status and correct them as said .now that a 42 WRA like mine is valued at 5000.00 and so on due to its rarity has driven the collector towards the rebuilds now ,which nobody would even consoder a year ago .so birch stocks and post war items are desired to be able to have a nice Garand of value and collectability .original rifles are rare as hens teeth and in the hands of collectors and you not ever going to get one ,so with the Garand, the thought process is to buy a mixmaster and restore ,why !! well these rifles were taken apart by GIs doing armory duty in the field and had buckets of bolts and operating rods ,handguards and small parts ,these were all mixed and cleaned ,washed and or replaced and put back together in all mixed ways .So you cannot get an original really untouched like you can on the Mosin Nagnts or m95s ,m48 ,k98k for that matter ,just not at all the same thing .the Garand was designed for ultimate interchangability ,that's the one main goal that was in the interest of the US army and other services ,these guns were lend leased to Israel ,Greece ,Turkey and other countries ,so they do not come back all correct parts ,98% all mixmaster Garands .So the cmp forums are about restoration and preserving these Garands as would be found as new unused rifles .most guys don't want reparked items truly ,but when an original WRA bolt is 150.00 in original coloring and you need 1000.00 more of parts to restore it .comes clear why it has become a high stakes game .I have a 42 Winchester needing the rear sight ,they call it a flushnut do to the design ,it be 700.00 to 1000.00 dollars ,is that the craziest thing you can imagine ? the buttplate same at 1000.00 if you could get a collector to let one go ,these are flat plates and checkered ,like a shotgun type .anyway YES 1 a whole different methodology going on .as for the CMP .years ago you could find that original sniper with all the goodies and original Garands could be found and many own these wonderful historic rifles .Today you buy a put together cmp graded rifle ,its been restored to become a select special grade and so on ,they are built to meet the needs of the Garand collector who does not wan to spend countless hours restoring (yes a dirty word here) but ,It is different altogether due to the fact you can get most all other military surplus rifles ,matching and refurbed with correct matching parts .not so on the American M1 Garand or M1 carbine .they did not care if anything matched when rebuilt ,wood ,metal ,nothing at all . anyhow much more of the real story told now .


sapishka

[ol scratch]

I have been a member of the CMP forum since 2010. While you do have some people who refinish rifles, I will respectfully disagree with your assessment that they all want to refinish their rifles. There is some parts swapping that happens, but again different strokes. I have been going to the North Store since 2009 and have seen a wide variety of rifles from original finishes that were unissued to rifles that have been rearsenalled many times.

[ol scratch]

The only way you get an as last issued Garand is one of the Korean imports, and even then it's as last issued in the 1950's with lots of swapped and updated parts. If it's a rifle for competition shooting you want then I recommend the CMP rifle, for history and just collecting then the Korean ones do fine. You may get a good shooter from the imports, but it's a crapshoot, you will get one from the CMP. Just remember what it is you are buying and why. Also keep in mind that CMP is not the only company out there building Garands, Fulton armory, Springfield sporters, and such do it also. They will build one to order. Again, that option is for competition shooters and very expensive. I have several DCM Garands, these were issued from US arsenals in the 1960's, so far as I know they just inspected them and you got what the State guard would have gotten. A good to go rifle that met basic infantry rifle spec. Today CMP is working with foreign bringhomes, these rifles can be well worn, and improperly maintained, they have to do a lot more to get them to spec than US armorers of the 60's who were giving you a Garand right out of a US armory. The CMP's rifles are intended as marksmanship training tool's, they can't give you a worn out collectors piece and still fulfill their mission. History and collecting are not their mission.

I will respectably correct what you said about the Korean Garands. I have a total of four Garands, all purchased at the North Store. Back in 2010, the CMP got a bunch of Greek Air Force returns. The rifles had the guys who were unpacking them swooning because they were so nice. I have a few Greek returns and one is correct. I purchased it like that and the chamber is in the white. Everything including the stock is HRA. It was a Collector grade I picked up in the spring of 2010. The rifle was coated in cosmoline that looked almost like beeswax. I went to the North Store and picked it up. My father-in-law bought two, one HRA and one post war Springfield. They were also correct with chambers in the white. The three I am talking about are as issued and have never been rebuilt. They used to have racks and racks of them that were that way. I will post picks of my Garands in a bit. An added bonus about the CMP rifles. They are not importers and the rifles are not import marked. The Koreans that we may or may not get in in the future will be import marked IF they don't go through the CMP.

[Junk Yard Dog]

I was collecting Garands in the 1990's, well before the Greek imports came available. The Greeks treated their Garands a bit better than the Koreans did, then again the Koreans did fight a war with theirs

[MeatMarket]

And for rat hunting.
.

I have a Mosin rat hunting story.

[ol scratch]

My CMP purchased Garands. All were purchased at the North Store. They are from oldest to newest. None of them are import marked.

Top- 1944 Springfield. Purchased in 2011 This is I believe a Dane return. It has a Beretta op rod and a VAR Danish barrel. Barrel gauges a zero at the muzzle and 1 at the throat. The lockbars are correct for the receiver and I think they are original to the receiver. The trigger group is interesting too. It was originally out of a gas trap era rifle. The bayonet is an uncut dated 1943 Oneida. It appears unissued. Never sharpened.

Second from top. 1945 Winchester. This is a Win 13. I just picked it up at the CMP a few weeks ago. The rifle is a mix master and will remain that way. Barrel is a 1950 Springfield. Stock is an SA GAW. The bayonet is a Bowie cut 1918 RIA. Obviously rearsenalled, not resharpened.

Second from bottom is a 1954 International Harvester. Purchased this spring. The rifle has the original LMR barrel with chamber in the white indicating original finish on the receiver. The bolt, trigger group, front handguard rear sight, bullet guide and follower arm are all IHC. Notice the finish wear in the op rod channel. Obviously not a re-park. Barrel gauges a 3 at the throat and a 1 plus at the muzzle. Bayonet is a "spear" point Oneida rearsenaled and cut down by PAL. Unissued after rearsenalled, never sharpened.

Last but not least is a 1955 Harrington Richardson. The rifle is complete. Every part is HRA. I purchased it that way. It is a correct grade rifle I picked up in 2010. It was covered in old cosmoline when I bought it. The chamber is in the white and it has an original for serial number LMR barrel. Stock is a small cartouche HRA stock too. It hasn't been fired much and never by me. The muzzle is a 0 plus, throat is a 1. It has a post war Imperial bayonet that is unissued. Never rearsenalled and never sharpened.

Some of you who love to hate on the CMP have really missed out. As I mentioned, I have been going to the North Store since 2009. Since that time, they have had releases of M2-AP in the original arsenal cans from SL arsenal, Loose and clipped up M2-AP. Bayonets including both 10 inch and 16 inch bayonets. They had all the manufacturers including Wylde and Oneida, Kimber Model 82 governments, 1917 Enfields, Krags, 1903's, 1903a3's, M1D's, M1C's, Post war HRA and Springfield Collector grade and correct grade rifles that were original, Daisy target pellet rifles, Remington 40x's, Winchester Model 72 .22 rifles, Mann accuracy devices (before going to the North Store, I had only ever seen one in a book), .308 barreled M1 receivers that were done by the military, HXP in various configurations, 520 rounds of Ball in the original SL and LC spam cans from the 50's, WWII linked cans in the WWII cans with tracer, Carbine ammo from the 1950's in spam cans, .410 military shotgun ammo from WWII in the original cans and crates for survival rifles, International Harvesters, Winchesters (at least two corrects were purchased) National Match rifles, M1D sniper scopes and accessories, M14 parts kits and most recently M1 Carbines of two varieties-refinished with new stocks and original finish with USGI wood. None of the rifles was import marked either.

[Junk Yard Dog]

For some reason I am not seeing the picture. Never had an issue with the CMP, or dealings with them, some of my Garands were originally purchased from the DCM by others before ending up with me back in the day. I collected my Garands back when they could be had for as little as $175, the least I ever paid for one back in the very early 1990's. I was also collecting M1903's, M1903-A3's , M1 carbines, and US M1917's at that time so I was limited on how many Garands I could buy. I did the one from each manufacturer thing, then grabbed up some more just for the hell of it, there were so many around back then that I never needed to go to the CMP, or maybe they were still the DCM at that time. Today if you want one there are few options. You can deal with a collector like me who will want all your cash, your check book, and credit cards, pink slip to the car, plus your services to keep my yard and lawn nice and tidy for the next 20 years, or you can go to the CMP were you will not find a $175 Garand, but you will get one at reasonable cost. How well I remember table after table full of Garands at the gun shows back then, even found them at flea markets.

[ol scratch]

For some reason I am not seeing the picture. Never had an issue with the CMP, or dealings with them, some of my Garands were originally purchased from the DCM by others before ending up with me back in the day. I collected my Garands back when they could be had for as little as $175, the least I ever paid for one back in the very early 1990's. I was also collecting M1903's, M1903-A3's , M1 carbines, and US M1917's at that time so I was limited on how many Garands I could buy. I did the one from each manufacturer thing, then grabbed up some more just for the hell of it, there were so many around back then that I never needed to go to the CMP, or maybe they were still the DCM at that time. Today if you want one there are few options. You can deal with a collector like me who will want all your cash, your check book, and credit cards, pink slip to the car, plus your services to keep my yard and lawn nice and tidy for the next 20 years, or you can go to the CMP were you will not find a $175 Garand, but you will get one at reasonable cost. How well I remember table after table full of Garands at the gun shows back then, even found them at flea markets.

I don't know why you can't see the pictures Junk Yard Dog. I signed in and can see them just fine. I am new to this particular forum, so maybe I am doing something wrong. I also wasn't calling you out, but just correcting something you said about Korean Garands. Comments on this thread have ranged all over the place and have even included some who claim the CMP refinishes and rebuilds all rifles. That just isn't the case. The CMP has started selling some rifles that have new Criterion barrels, new stocks and are refinished, but they tell people that is what they are. You can still purchase rifles that are as they left storage. The rifles I have pictured are in their original configuration. That HRA is the condition it was in when it left the factory and I picked it up at the CMP. The CMP couldn't have even test fired it because the barrel was loaded with cosmoline.

The world of surplus military firearms collecting is rife, it seems, with individuals who take what they paid for something 20-years-ago and think that should be the price of the item forever. I wasn't including you in that Junk Yard Dog. You just quoted prices. I remember purchasing my first Mosin Nagant for $59 in 1999. It was a 1903 Tula Imperial rifle with a Hex Receiver. My uncle was picking up M59's at Dunham's for $39. I hate Mosin carbines with a passion, so I didn't pick up one or a dozen...regretting that now. Around the same time, they got in a bunch of M59/66 Yugoslavian SKS rifles. They wanted $99 for rifles that appeared unissued. People who purchased Russian SKS rifles in the early 90's for $79 thought the Yugos were too high. I picked up a rearsenaled (force matched and some correct parts) Russian Tula for $200 in 2000 (sold it in 2010 to purchase that HRA). Those same people implied I was a fool for purchasing that rifle because they got theirs ten years earlier for $79. Check the price of an M59/30 or a Russian SKS right now. On several occasions, I have seen the same attitude displayed at The North Store. People come in expecting to pay prices from 20 and even 40 years ago and boast about how cheap surplus was. There are even weird mythologies that pop up like people claiming you can get a rifle at Perry for free if you are former military and shoot a qualifying course. Then you have people who claim that the rifles will be cheap when the current Muppet is out of office. It is like they think the stars will aline and we will be showered in $30 dollar M1 Garands and Carbines again. On two different occasions when Rack grades were $395, Fields were $495 and Service grades were $595, I watched as people talked two new guys out of purchases because they paid less for them. One of those guys picked up the rifle he talked the guy out of and bought it. Frankly even at today's prices ($630 for a field, $730 for a service), it is still relatively affordable. Are they as inexpensive as say a Mosin or a Russian or even a Yugoslavian SKS? Nope, but that gap is closing VERY quickly, particularly when comparing them to an SKS's. Even Molot Snipers were released at almost $600 when I picked mine up two years ago. As an added bonus, the rifles the CMP sells don't have import marks even though they came from overseas store houses. Using gunbroker and gun shows in my area as my guide, I could flip those rifles at those prices and make between $200 and $400 right out of the gate. I have never purchased any other surplus firearm and been able to do that.

As to the Koreans fighting a war with their rifles. I just recently learned that the Greeks were fighting a civil war with the Garands they were given against an attempted communist overthrow. I have seen a broad range in the condition of the rifles from The North Store. Some even had Greek names and letters carved into the stocks. The difference was the release of the Air Force Garands over the last couple of years because they never used them. The CMP also got some Garands back from Turkey recently. I don't know who those were used to fight. All very interesting.

If I offended anyone, it was not my intention and I apologize. I was attempting to dispel any myths and misinformation regarding the CMP. These are first hand experiences and I have been making the trek out to Port Clinton for years now. At one time when ammo, bayonets and rifles were hanging all over the place, I made the trip once a week. I have cut it back considerably and only make the trip about once a month, but more sometimes during the Matches because interesting things just pop up from time to time.

EDIT. I added a link from Image Shack of the rifles. Hopefully this works. http://imageshack.com/a/img633/2721/oHEl4Q.jpg

[Junk Yard Dog]

I can see the picture, the shop computer is rapidly crapping out and sometimes forgets how to see pictures. Turkey has had problems with rebellious ethnic minority's in the past 60 years, still goes on from what I see on the news. The Greek's put down the communists with the Garands we gave them, that is why we handed them over in the first place. The war was far more contained, and of shorter duration than the 1950-53 Korean conflict, the ROK was decades recovering from that unpleasantness so their Garands had to serve many years with little maintenance. I remember some seriously worn Korean import M1's, nothing in spec, I wouldn't even trust the receiver on some of them, wall hanger material, or blank fire rifle for the living history guys. Then of course there were the "Blue Sky" import markings that some 800 pound gorilla slammed into the barrel so hard the barrels bent. Someone clued the idiot's in about that before they marked every rifle, but on many the damage was done. I often wonder what condition the Garands we gave South Vietnam are in today, or the ones we supplied to Batista's forces in Cuba before Castro sent him packing. We are unlikely to ever see any of these returned, or otherwise imported.

More than once I have had to hear the whole " When I bought the last one in '77 it was only....." Yea, I tell them that if they can make me and the world as it was in '77 again they can have every damn thing I own for free. Inflation, we are paying more now for everything than we were back in the day, but if you adjust for inflation we really aren't paying that much more, it just seems like it. I was lucky enough to be collecting at a time when there was a vast abundance of material available. Today it's not so much the money as it is the availability, imports have slowed, stockpiles have been run dry, a lot of good stuff has vanished into collections were it will stay until someone dies. Everything I have from the black powder cartridge era comes out of one or another dead mans collection. One day even the CMP will run dry, they didn't make an unlimited number of Garands, but every year another group of new shooters comes along wanting them.

Talking a guy out of buying a rifle, or anything and then buying it yourself is dirty pool plain and simple, but some collectors are not above that. They are out for their own collection and view it as a serious competition to acquire the best of whatever it is, these people are not interested in expanding the hobby or helping newbies. Vegas card sharks have nothing on some of these guys, they guard their sources, and honey holes like state secrets, state secrets not guarded by Hillary Clinton anyway. They will look you straight in the face and tell you that IHC was a tractor manufacturer who made knock off M1's for cheap catalog sales and they are dangerous to shoot, go get yourself a good ol' US arsenal made Springfield Armory rifle kid, leave that cheap shit right there on the table...

[ol scratch]

I have seen a few Blue Skies at gun shows too. Pretty sad how they stamped those barrels. I have even seen one "Spring-ardson" reweld, a Santa Fe commercial, and more than a few Century Arms at shows around me. The stories that come with some of these rifles you should have to pay for. One Century I saw complete with story was that the person stamping the receiver was drunk and forgot to stamp a serial number and manufacturer on the heel. That was a rifle they wanted $800 for. Then there was the Enfield "sniper" that remains to this day the most pitted rifle I have ever seen. The guy said it was a sniper that had spent time at the bottom of the English Channel and that was the reason it was so pitted. It was complete with new Tasco scope all for the bargain price of $450. I wish I had had a smart phone at the time so I could have gotten a picture. That one was at the Lima Coon Dog Trials. I go to that show every year if nothing else but to hear the stories people tell.

I have been worried about the end of some of the surplus market too. I absolutely agree with you that just like everything else, it is finite. I am surprised every year at some of the surplus that does turn up on occasion. At Perry, they have been saving some interesting things for right around the matches. This year it was the carbines. Rare ammo pops up from time to time and has for years now. It does seem if you watch Shotgun News or check some sites they have something that pops up too. This spring it was the Star B's that caught my attention. I hold out that odd surplus will continue for years. There is even talk that the army is holding out around 100,000 1911's and that they want to give them to the CMP. The story I was told by someone in the know was that they don't want to store them anymore. That would require a few things and a number of hoops to release. It is probably a pipe dream, but things change. They will probably end up going to Captain Crunch, but stranger things have happened in the past. I even wonder if Garands and Carbines might turn up from some odd places like Iraq when things settle down. The president couldn't stop their import if they were given to the CMP. I am surprised every year by what turns up including some interesting parts kits like the Imbels that popped up recently because someone found them in a warehouse complete with original barrels. Now saving my pennies for a Coonan receiver. Plenty of stuff it seems to keep me searching...and hoping for a while.

[steelbuttplate]

I just got my June '45 SA and it's got about 90% parkerized outside and 80% inside. All the wood matches, color-dings-everything, I believe I got a unmolested M1. It's not a CMP for sure. I was told somebody owned it 30 + yrs

[rice paddy daddy]

I ran into one of "those guys" at the range one time. His M1 looked brand new, and his contempt for my rifle was very clear.
Mine is a Korean return, a total mix of parts (1945 SA receiver, Winchester bolt, LMR barrel dated 12-53, NM gas cylinder and op rod).
It looks like it was drug behind a jeep, the Parkerizing is different colors, it even has Korean characters stenciled on the web sling. But, to me, it has CHARACTER. (I like mongrel dogs, too)
It is just an Old Soldier, like me.
But it is my rifle, she shoots straight. And I'd bet my life on her.

[millman]

And for rat hunting.
.

I have a Mosin rat hunting story.

What did that taste like?

[Darryl]

"HE" is a collector......a Garand collector. This is what they do. But mostly they are shooters that want a nice looking rifle.


For "US", we are Mosin ore surplus collectors. The bumps are what makes the rifle.

I have a Charleville 1763 Musket. Is it more "collectable" with the original stock on it, or perhaps a "new" replacement stock made today? You tell me which is more collectable and more valuable? Easy question when asked like that. However, in the Garand world, it may not be the same.

Each collectors "worlds" are different. Look at model A's as a collectable. It is permissable to "restore" one if it is in bad shape. But it will be worth less then one that has not been touched and in excellent condition. So in this world (Model A's), they have a different standard then we do here. Before you touch anything, just get to know it and it values, both restored and original.

I saw a "road show" program on TV the other day. The guy had a beat up old wooden chair and the original upholstery was crap. The guy said it was worth something like $25,000! Said if he has replaced the upholstery, it would drop about $$8,000. Me, I looked at it and though, I'd have tossed it into the fire...it looked that bad............. But that is what they want to see!

So, who knows. Just know what you have before you start on it!!