Converted M91 > 91/30's

[cj1964]

A couple months ago I got an opportunity to buy a pair of converted M91 rifles. There are a few parts that are Romanian marked, including one of the bolts, so I'm going to assume they're made in Romania although that is only an assumption!!
These rifles started out as a 1917 Remington and a mid-range (s/n 750375) New England Westinghouse M91. The Romanov Eagles are not fully scrubbed, although the NEW is very weak.

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The rifles are nearly identical in their workmanship. Each has had the barrel cut and turned down at the end to allow a pre-welded front sight sleeve to be soldered in place, similar to some of the 91/38 rifles I've seen.

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The rear sights are from a 91/30 and they are held in place by four diamond shaped tabs welded to the sight and barrel.

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Both rifles are in typical Russian refurb stocks! One has a heel splice and both have "bumps and bruises" that must have come from use. I'm not sure what they were used for, but they're not too fresh! The barrel bands are typical split ring 91/30 bands.

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The only parts that are force matched to the barrel are the butt plates. This is quite common with Balkan rifles for some reason.

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The receiver tangs are both obscured by odd markings.

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Each has an unmatched floor plate with original numbers.

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The bores on each of these rifles are amazing. Yes, there is some use and wear, but for Balkan rifles they are surprisingly clean and strong. I suppose that makes sense because there's a lot of work that went into these conversion rifles and they wouldn't want a worn out barrel to begin with.
These conversions are fairly uncommon and I haven't researched them very much, so any details or education that can be added to this post would be most welcome. I suspect they'll remain mysterious, but they're true relics of history.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Been some years since I saw any of these on the board, there weren't that many compared to the regular 91/30. Lot of history in these rifles, nice finds.

[Junk Yard Dog]

The Romanian government was perpetually broke, they were the recipients of Soviet aid, as well as surplus Mosins from other commie countries. I suspect these were made up in Romania mostly because Poland, Hungary, and Russia didn't need to create stuff like this. Leftover rifles captured during the Great War , Romania ended up with a lot of M91's, they didn't convert all of them, and most of the others that came in with that lot had Bulgarian pinecone stamps on them. They sold most of the lot to US importers shortly after they shot their last commie leader. These flooded the market in the 90's selling very cheaply, I used to be able to grab then for less than $50 at one time, not anymore.

[redspoon]

Wow what a pair of 91/30's big congrats

[redeuce]

Great rifles.

[racerguy00]

Congrats!!! Great pair. I've been trying for a Westinghouse 91/30 to match my NEW M44. Some of these were refurbed by the Soviets, a fresh looking NEW in a laminate stock showed up online recently. So, converted in the Balkans and some made it to the USSR after or a USSR conversion that were mostly passed off to Romania? I dont know. Sweet pair there.

[Miller Tyme]

Those are just soooooooo cool.

[Junk Yard Dog]

The tip off that it's a Balkan conversion is the welding on of the rear sight. The Soviets didn't do that, look at any of the refurbished 91/30's made before 1933 or so and you can see how the Soviets attached a new rear sight. The welding is crude, this is a Balkan touch, not Russian.

[racerguy00]

Any thoughts on when the ones that were refurbed by the USSR would have been brought back there? A couple of the well used ones like in this post have refurb [\] marks on the barrel shank, so they would have gone to the USSR for refurb then back to the balkans.

[qz2026]

Never seen the welded rear sights before. Damn.... Romanians made them work somehow, someway...

[Junk Yard Dog]

Any thoughts on when the ones that were refurbed by the USSR would have been brought back there? A couple of the well used ones like in this post have refurb [\] marks on the barrel shank, so they would have gone to the USSR for refurb then back to the balkans.

They were not brought back to the USSR, they were refurbished in the USSR after WW2, that is were they get the refurb stamps, or no stamps depending on what Russian arsenal did the work. The Soviets then took some of these refurbished rifles and gave them to their new "allies" the puppet communist governments of the Eastern European countries. THese governments don't seem to have returned any of this free stuff to Russia, they just passed it around among themselves. Poland, Hungary, and eventually Romania all started their own Mosin building projects. Romania couldn't produce enough M44's fast enough due to cash shortfalls so they filled the gap with surplus Mosins they got from Hungary and Poland. This is why it's not uncommon to find issued looking M44's with Polish, Hungarian, Russian and Romanian parts all mixed on the same rifle. Russia was not handing out free Mosins to any of these countries prior to WW2, they were only giving free stuff to the Republican/communist side of the Spanish civil War.

[racerguy00]

Any thoughts on when the ones that were refurbed by the USSR would have been brought back there? A couple of the well used ones like in this post have refurb [\] marks on the barrel shank, so they would have gone to the USSR for refurb then back to the balkans.

They were not brought back to the USSR, they were refurbished in the USSR after WW2, that is were they get the refurb stamps, or no stamps depending on what Russian arsenal did the work. The Soviets then took some of these refurbished rifles and gave them to their new "allies" the puppet communist governments of the Eastern European countries. THese governments don't seem to have returned any of this free stuff to Russia, they just passed it around among themselves. Poland, Hungary, and eventually Romania all started their own Mosin building projects. Romania couldn't produce enough M44's fast enough due to cash shortfalls so they filled the gap with surplus Mosins they got from Hungary and Poland. This is why it's not uncommon to find issued looking M44's with Polish, Hungarian, Russian and Romanian parts all mixed on the same rifle. Russia was not handing out free Mosins to any of these countries prior to WW2, they were only giving free stuff to the Republican/communist side of the Spanish civil War.

That's why the origin of these conversions is so confusing. The workmanship and the fact that most show balkan traits points towards Romania or another poor communist country in that area. But the fact that some were refurbed, stamped and crated up just like any other 91/30 in the USSR refurb program points to a Soviet origin. But if it were a Soviet conversion though, why not just pin the sight bases like on refurbed ex dragoons? In fact many of rear bases used on these have welded up pin holes, so they must have been take-offs from wartime or later refurbed 91/30s. That points back to a non-Soviet origin. Back to square one.

[Junk Yard Dog]

No, the cut down 91's are not a Soviet conversion, there are Soviet parts used to make the conversion, but the conversion itself is Romanian. Likely they received the original M91's for one of the other Balkan countries that still had stockpiles of M91's captured from the Russians during the Great War. Some of the original M91's that came in with the Romanian hoard had Bulgarian pinecone stamps on the stocks. The Bulgarians captured them from both the Russians and the Serbs ( who got them from Russia) during the great war.

[jimpierce7]

spectacular!!

[neal45]

Excellent post, excellent rifles, and excellent information in this thread.

[racerguy00]

So far I have seen four different examples that went through the Soviet refurb process and were not issued after. These came in with the normal Ukraine imports and share the same refurb and import marks as the normal 91/30s do. When and how did these ones make it back to the USSR for refurb? I wish I knew. Here is an example.

[cj1964]

The stock on the NEW has a typical Russian refurb mark. On the left side of the stock is a Romanian triangle with letters. The Romanian stamp appears to be the more recent of the two marks, in that it's stamped over the top of the shellac.

[gurn]

Me like!

[Junk Yard Dog]

Could be they were made in Hungary, or Czechoslovakia and were captured by the Soviets during their crackdown's in these country's and just put in the refurb pile. Remember the Hungarian 91/30's that turn up in the Soviet refurb crates?

[desdem12]