So...I know very little about the legalities of buy/sell

[JayPoc]

the M39 thread got me looking through GB. There's a guy in California who has been a member since 2006, and sold like 2600 items, most of them guns. In the product description he says he doesn't have an FFL, but he can send a copy of his driver's license.

So he's sold over 2000 guns in 8 years, but doesn't have an FFL? That's like super illegal, right? Would someone buying from him be putting themselves (or anything they buy from him in) jeopardy?

[djbuck1]

From the ATF website:



Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. (Emphasis added)

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]


Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]


Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]


Q: May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State?

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]

[JayPoc]

From the ATF website:

I suppose I had a basic understanding of the regs you posted...but it seems like dealing in the volume he deals in...WITHOUT being an FFL holder would have to be illegal. If not, why does anyone get a FFL in the first place?

[djbuck1]

From the ATF website:

I suppose I had a basic understanding of the regs you posted...but it seems like dealing in the volume he deals in...WITHOUT being an FFL holder would have to be illegal. If not, why does anyone get a FFL in the first place?

Because that is what the law requires.

[bunkysdad]

Just because a seller has sold 2600 items doesn't mean they were all guns. They may also have special permission to liquidate inventory like Pat Burns in New York.

[djbuck1]

Just because a seller has sold 2600 items doesn't mean they were all guns. They may also have special permission to liquidate inventory like Pat Burns in New York.

Good luck to him.

[JayPoc]

Well, in the article he says he'll only ship to FFL or C&R. He does sell accessories and such, but his reviews seem to mention sales of handguns and long guns, modern and C&R. Seems like he's running a business of selling guns...just found it interesting. So perhaps he's right on the edge of the spirit and letter of the law?

[redeuce]

Pat Burns has sold thousands of rifles, barreled actions, receivers, and misc parts with only a drivers license. As mentioned, with special permission from ATF. Which makes one wonder. Bill gets in trouble with the law, and the punishment includes allowing his wife to sell the whole inventory with a drivers license.

At any rate, hundreds of firearms are sold every day by non licensed sellers on only a drivers license. Perfectly legal as long as it is shipped to a 01 or 03 FFL. Some 01 ffl's will not accept a firearm from a private individual, because they have no paper trail of the buy/sell history. Before I got my C&R, I had an FFL who was a full time police detective. He would only accept a firearm from a 01 or 03. Said it wasn't worth risking his career for $25 if the firearm was discovered to be stolen or used in a crime down the road.
As to number of sales, who knows. I've read my C&R regulations a number of times, and it is full of gray areas. Same as the general ATF laws. They do it on purpose so they can interpret the laws as they see fit.

[Darryl]

the M39 thread got me looking through GB. There's a guy in California who has been a member since 2006, and sold like 2600 items, most of them guns. In the product description he says he doesn't have an FFL, but he can send a copy of his driver's license.

So he's sold over 2000 guns in 8 years, but doesn't have an FFL? That's like super illegal, right? Would someone buying from him be putting themselves (or anything they buy from him in) jeopardy?

In California, he can only sell to a 01FFL dealer who will take a shipment from him, or a 03FFL with a CADOJ COE certificate.

Out of California, he can only sell to a 01FFL dealer who will take a shipment for him, or a 03FFL out of state (and he has to go by the rules of the 03ffl dealers home state.



Burns is not selling anything with permission of the ATF. The rifles are considered his and his wife Pat by community property, and she can sell them as long as she follows the law which is.
They can only sell to a 01FFL dealer who will take a shipment for him, or a 03FFL out of state (and he has to go by the rules of the 03ffl dealers home state).

Bill Burns was selling automatic parts kits that had been deactivated by sawing the receivers through with a band saw. He was told by ATF that was fine. Then they changed their rules and the receiver had to be cut with a flame torch (so it is next to impossible to but back together). The ATF went after him for the ones he already sold and they pulled his license. Fair or not, that is how it went down. So he ended up with no 01FFL license and can't get one now (I think he may be dead now anyway). So his wife (who is not convicted of anything) can sell them with a Drivers License (just the C&R firearms only which are mostly M39's).

Dolk

[WeldonHunter]

the M39 thread got me looking through GB. There's a guy in California who has been a member since 2006, and sold like 2600 items, most of them guns. In the product description he says he doesn't have an FFL, but he can send a copy of his driver's license.

So he's sold over 2000 guns in 8 years, but doesn't have an FFL? That's like super illegal, right? Would someone buying from him be putting themselves (or anything they buy from him in) jeopardy?

In California, he can only sell to a 01FFL dealer who will take a shipment from him, or a 03FFL with a CADOJ COE certificate.

Out of California, he can only sell to a 01FFL dealer who will take a shipment for him, or a 03FFL out of state (and he has to go by the rules of the 03ffl dealers home state.



Burns is not selling anything with permission of the ATF. The rifles are considered his and his wife Pat by community property, and she can sell them as long as she follows the law which is.
They can only sell to a 01FFL dealer who will take a shipment for him, or a 03FFL out of state (and he has to go by the rules of the 03ffl dealers home state).

Bill Burns was selling automatic parts kits that had been deactivated by sawing the receivers through with a band saw. He was told by ATF that was fine. Then they changed their rules and the receiver had to be cut with a flame torch (so it is next to impossible to but back together). The ATF went after him for the ones he already sold and they pulled his license. Fair or not, that is how it went down. So he ended up with no 01FFL license and can't get one now (I think he may be dead now anyway). So his wife (who is not convicted of anything) can sell them with a Drivers License (just the C&R firearms only which are mostly M39's).

Dolk

Holy crap Darryl that brings back memories. In the mid 80s when I lived in Maryland we had a guy that came around selling tools to all the shops. He was an independent and sold a bunch of off brand stuff as well as S&K and some other decent tools. It was a regular size truck like the Snap-on or Matco truck. He was also a firearms collector. One day he pulled out an AK that had been cut in half with a band saw and rewelded just like you described. I don't remember if it was select fire but knowing this guy I guess it might have been. AKs weren't something you see everyday and in Maryland. I always wondered what the story was behind that rifle. Now it makes sense.

[redeuce]

Dolk

Very interesting post. Thank you. I always assumed it was with some kind of agreement due to the sheer volume. I guess there cant be a number limit for anyone then, even if for profit as a business?

[jones0430]

A point of law, you can sell to anyone as long as you reasonably believe them not to be a felon or otherwise proscribed from owning firearms. You can, in certain states transfer a long arm to a buyer in the same state through a mail carrier, directly. Interstate you can only transfer the firearm through an 01 or 03 FFL.

[Mosinhope]

The problem happens with BUYING and selling. Buy 10 and sell 10, buy 15 and sell 14. If you have a large collection and are getting up there in years and you SELL 20 and buy 2, sell 18 and don't buy anything, sell 97 and buy 5, no problem. It is the repetitive buying and selling that "gets" you. Mrs. Burns to my knowledge does not buy anything. She states that she is "disposing" of a large private collection and has been doing so for years. Go for it Pat!!

[Junk Yard Dog]

It was exactly that gray area shit that convinced me to drop the C&R some years back, or at least not renew it again. Several of my direct questions to the ATF agent who was sent to inform me of the C&R rules ( apparently something they do this close to the city) were met with a response of " it's a gray area" How many guns am I allowed to sell out of my collection if I want to upgrade- That's a gray area. Yea, an agent may decide one is too many to transfer out, while another may ignore 50 you sold, screw that. I got what I wanted with the C&R and parted ways with Uncle after that.

[Darryl]

A point of law, you can sell to anyone as long as you reasonably believe them not to be a felon or otherwise proscribed from owning firearms. You can, in certain states transfer a long arm to a buyer in the same state through a mail carrier, directly. Interstate you can only transfer the firearm through an 01 or 03 FFL.

Point taken but.....

The example we are working with "here" is a guy selling in California. That is what I addressed.

Most states (including Calif. up to January 2014) you were (or are) able to sell a C&R within the state to just about anyone (and ship). Of coarse they can't be a felon, but really, how would you know for sure? No process is in place in most states to check that. Now in Calif, no more face to face of C&R's. Must go through a 03FFL C&R with COE or a 01FFL.

You must always go by the laws of the state and local Gov on both ends. Any transfer of a firearm over state lines require a FFL. Some "States" (like CA.) require a little more.

Dolk

[Darryl]

Mrs. Burns to my knowledge does not buy anything. She states that she is "disposing" of a large private collection and has been doing so for years. Go for it Pat!!

Exactly right. Even if the person really running the place and doing the "selling" is her son. Go Junior (too)!

Dolk

[djbuck1]

It was exactly that gray area shit that convinced me to drop the C&R some years back, or at least not renew it again. Several of my direct questions to the ATF agent who was sent to inform me of the C&R rules ( apparently something they do this close to the city) were met with a response of " it's a gray area" How many guns am I allowed to sell out of my collection if I want to upgrade- That's a gray area. Yea, an agent may decide one is too many to transfer out, while another may ignore 50 you sold, screw that.

This is how a lawyer approaches this issue. Too many grey areas plus discretionary enforcement equals litigation (i.e. very expensive trouble).

When I was in practice, I listened to many clients-- otherwise smart business people-- talk themselves into all sorts of interesting peril by interpreting the law to suit their desires. We called it "magical thinking." This is how I want it to be, so it is! And telling folks what they don't want to hear is sometimes pretty unpleasant, but it goes with the job. They don't have to listen, but you have to warn them.

I concede that often, they got away with their borderline conduct. There's only so much oversight/enforcement that can be done. But when they didn't, the billable hours soared.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Bottom line is that we are not the legal aid society here, state laws differ in all 50 states as well as local jurisdiction's within states, plus Fed law, there is no way we can keep current on all of it. If you have serious questions about conducting a firearms sale either contact the BATFE and ask , or safer yet contact the NRA and ask their recommendation for a lawyer in your area who will handle cases involving firearms law. F*** the dog on a firearms transfer and you could be looking at prison time if you are caught, and yes, I know enough corrections officers to say that everything you heard about prison life is true.

[redeuce]

It was exactly that gray area shit that convinced me to drop the C&R some years back, or at least not renew it again. Several of my direct questions to the ATF agent who was sent to inform me of the C&R rules ( apparently something they do this close to the city) were met with a response of " it's a gray area" How many guns am I allowed to sell out of my collection if I want to upgrade- That's a gray area. Yea, an agent may decide one is too many to transfer out, while another may ignore 50 you sold, screw that. I got what I wanted with the C&R and parted ways with Uncle after that.

I think the more you talk about this, the more I see the wisdom of your decision. In reality, the C&R has been a great way to obtain rifles and ammo for me. As for liquidation, it seems it would be better if said license was gone...

[bunkysdad]

Can you imagine the contents and purchase price of all of the Finn M39's in the original Burns shipment. I would have loved to be present when the trucks started rolling in.