Parkerized 90/30 Ex-PEM Sniper and Bayonet

[Judi and her Mosins]

I seen one of these before, I also was wondering as the import stamp was a give away. This is only the second one I seen, never held one. Good find . Judi and her Mosin's

[ffeng31]

Hmmm...Interesting. It " appears " legit as there is shellac on some of the parkerized metal. I'll let the experts weigh in on this one. I will say this, if it is legit, I want one for the crate.

[Darryl]

You can see the Russian refurbishment mark on the barrel shank. That would tell you that after the war the Russians refurbished that rifle, so the Finns had nothing to do with it I would suspect. Some time in the 50's to the 70's the Russians refurbished that rifle. No comment on the "Park" job.

The groove or finger cutouts behind the lower bands you see mostly on carbines. But I have seen it on a M91/30 also. Not uncommon.

Dolk

[Darryl]

I'd love to see a straight on photo of the PW Arms import marks myself.

Also, under the hand guard on the top of the barrel.

Dolk


PS, it's also an "ex sniper" rifle and the Finns didn't plug holes and turn them into a standard infantry rifle. That was also done by the Russians after the war.

[ffeng31]

This rifle peaked my interest enough to call the seller this afternoon. I have done business with him in the past and have no reason to doubt anything he tells me. This is what he knows about these rifles. A friend of his works at one of the large import houses and called him one day about these rifles. He opened a fresh crate and lo and behold 18 of the 20 were parkerized . He took a chance and bought them all. They are completely parked , above and below the wood line with the exception of the cleaning rod , which he says looks new. He says the parkerization looks very similar to the Czech VZ's. Initially there was speculation that someone had parked these to cover up the fact that the rifles were in rough condition , but this is not the case. All of the rifles are in very good condition ,with the stocks being very nice and no evidence that the parkerization is covering up any rust. I dont know what to think. I dont for a minute believe that they were ever in Finn hands but I also dont believe that it is out of the realm of possibility that the Russians experimented with parkerizing a few. The kicker is that the bayonets numbers match the rifles and are parked as well... Explain that one...Kinda lends creedence to the claim that they came from the crate that way . Another one of Ivans mysteries. I once bought a refurb 91/30 at a local show that was dated 1950 and the Izhevsk crest looked like someone had drawn it freehand. It was as legit as can be . Hasn't been completely explained to this day and only a handful have surfaced. Doesnt make them any less real. These may be in the same boat. Food for thought.

[desdem12]

Interesting for sure.

[Darryl]

I reserve comment on the Park job until I can see more "evidence" that these came in this way ....... and who handled them in the past.

I never trust anyone who is in the position to make money on these rifles until I can see more proof and evidence. So until I can see evidence of the handling of these rifles, I will reserve comment on saying they are one way or another. Seeing I have never seen this practice from the Finns or the Russians.

Interesting that these came in to "Family Firearms & Finishes" who specialize in refinishing stocks, Duracoating and Parkerizing.

I still would like to see more photos of the import mark and all the metal surfaces of the rifle. Without that, it would be impossible to say anything further.

Dolk

[Darryl]

As for the bayonets matching the rifle. If you bought and entire crate of Mosins unopened that came from the Ukraine, you would have all the bayonets in that crate that match the rifles. The reason they don't match on most refurbs being sold is, the sellers don't take the time (well most of them anyways) to match the bayonet to the rifle. They just grab a rifle and a bayonet ans send it out. Or in some cases, they sell the bayonets separately. Some of the sellers matched the bayonets to the rifle in each crate. And that is common. I probably have 5 or 6 refurbs with matching bayonets. That doesn't answer the question ....who Parked these rifles or why.

Dolk

[ffeng31]

I am playing the devils advocate here. Here is a link to a thread with pics of the aforementioned rifles. http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... 8&t=134331 . Pic of the import mark makes it pretty obvious the parkerization was done prior to it being marked. Even the crossbolts are parked. Unusual or not , and with there being areas of shellac on the metal over the parkerization, I personally dont see them as being Bubba'd... Just my

[Darryl]

Interesting and odd ......... I still have no comments on the Park. It's a new one on me.

I've seen weird things before with these rifles, but most of the time it's the Finns that do strange or limited things, not the Russians. It's kind of like when I see a Finn bolt that has been blued, It always makes me scratch my head and wonder why.

But these two rifles came in with other Russian crates of rifles, and they both have a Russian refurb mark on them and no evidence of Finn markings anywhere. These must be Russian. And that just makes it weirder.



Dolk

[bunkysdad]

I have a question. What does Todd at Family Firearms and finishes specialize in? Because not knowing, I get the impression that refinishing is a possibility, just from the name of the business. Enlighten me and save me 2 hours of research and reading.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Years back an idiot I know got himself a home Parkerizing kit and did over one of the early import Omega type 53's, you know the ones with the no finish left. The parkerized rifle looked exactly like the one here, same shade, same everything except the red shellac, he went with poly ( of course) You forget one thing about Parkerizing that anyone who has owned original US M1 Garands would know. It turns color on long exposure to grease, cosmoline, and other rust retarding agents, gray green. The commies stored their rifles in 20 round crates with either desiccant paper and light grease, or heavy grease, the minimum storage time would be at least 40 years, most 50-60 years. I am seeing a Mosin with absolutely brand new Parkerizing here, no sign of age, or long grease exposure discoloration at all, and in exactly the same shade as is commonly used in the west. Once you are in this game long enough you get used to the fact that company's who's business it is selling firearms will tell you whatever they think you want to hear, and do anything to promote the product so they can make money. How many times have we seen Classic's chrome Mosins being pushed as "parade rifles"? Ten times? 50 times? 100? The commies were cheap f***'s, they operated on a shoestring and always looked to cut corners were they could. If they ran out of cheap bluing salts they would have used black paint as they did use as bluing touch up. They also were not interested in modernizing the Mosin , cheap, fast , slap it done refurb is what they needed and wanted. Of course there is shellac on the metal, if someone is going to park a rifle why would they stop there? A quick shellac job would not add much cost, and it's not that hard to match the commie red shade if you know how. Have a look also at the serial number on the bolt, it's parkerized after being stamped, so they built an entire rifle, numbered it ( along with the thousand or so others done that day) then took it apart being extra careful to keep all the numbered parts together, parkerized it, then put it back together with the same parts? That would require the individual handling of each rifle, in a government sized refurb program that would have been immensely time consuming, they would have batch parked the parts before final assembly, and serial numbering at the end of the process, not the start of it.

It's buyer beware when dealing with any outfit selling used firearms, most will just pass along something as they received it, others will try to "improve" it a bit to get more buyers, and they will bullshit you, just take Mitchells Mauser's and Gibbs rifles ( among others) as a good example of this. As someone who has been royally screwed by a gun selling outfit in the past with just such a bullshit story as the "parkerized Mosin" I will say straight out that I think this is a Bubba rifle, I think someone sidelined a crate of Mosins and Parked them to see if they could sell them at greater profit. Welcome to the I bought a Bubba rifle and thought it was real club, mine was a Gibbs Enfield No7 7.62mm Carbine, and I paid nearly $275 for it back before there was no internet making it easy to check up on such things before buying. Every collector gets stuck with something like this sooner or later, mostly by the time we have been at it 20-30 years we get a nose for sniffing out the bullshit.

[Rongo]

Excellent point Jim.... It looks like a fresh job. I just purchased 4 Carbine Mosin Nagants in a package deal that was too good to pass up. Downside is one of the M44's was refinished (Not by the seller) & it had a full on parkerizing finish much the same as these 91/30's do. Not any mystery there... Someone Stateside did it.

No I agree... These were done recently & not by an arsenal.

[zeebill]

OK I have a point on the Parkerizing and that is I don't think it is that process at all. I am most sure it is the use of a Phosphate coating which my 1906 carbine is coated with, which KHW told the previous owner was done by the Finn's in the 20's refurb of them. These time slots or locations make no sense at all to me but again I am almost sure that is not Parkerized unless anyone wants to question KHW assessment of the finish.

To further muddy the waters here I have several straight from the importer M39's that have a mystery finish on them I got many years ago from Century. They are not super models of a M39 or ultra rare numbers but simply normal models which I bought because of that finish being on them. It looks quite like what we are looking at here. I know they were refurbed by the Finn's so that coating may have been reused again later by the Russians in an experiment.

I also suggested that they may have been refinished when the usual amount of grease we see on most imports was not on them and resulted in rust and damage on them due to poor storage. If they bead blasted the rust away and then coated the parts with whatever this coating is the damage would be undetectable. If I put oil on the coating on the carbine it rubs right off with no resulting stain or color change.

I have gunsmith buddies that have totally reproduced the color and feel of Parkerizing with a Dura-coat finish to the point of calling them restored and no one even questioning the finish. The only comment I have heard is Boy you did a great job on this Parkerizing because it is much more resistant to scratching or marring. Now there is a new generation of coating out that is easier to do and holds up even better and looks a great deal like Parkerizing.

I have no idea whether these points are valid but if you take a sharp blade and scrape at Parkerizing it will peel away and Phosphate coating will just powder and leave a bright scrape of the metal behind. If this could be done below the wood line it could tell us something. I kind of feel like the older and questioned coating on the M39's I have this will remain a questioned argument here as there are just too many possibilities of what we could be looking at. Yeah I know no answers just further questions for the most part! Sorry? Bill

[Darryl]

Unusual or not , and with there being areas of shellac on the metal over the parkerization, I personally dont see them as being Bubba'd... Just my

The shellac on the metal is a big part of what convinced me that this finish is authentic. It looks like the over-applied shellac one sees on just about every refurbished Mosin.

I can put shellac on a rifle, and would if I were trying to "hump" a rifle. Means nothing. Not saying these are "humped", but just pointing out the things some Humpers have done in the past.

Dolk

[Darryl]

OK I have a point on the Parkerizing and that is I don't think it is that process at all. I am most sure it is the use of a Phosphate coating which my 1906 carbine is coated with, which KHW told the previous owner was done by the Finn's in the 20's refurb of them. These time slots or locations make no sense at all to me but again I am almost sure that is not Parkerized unless anyone wants to question KHW assessment of the finish.

To further muddy the waters here I have several straight from the importer M39's that have a mystery finish on them I got many years ago from Century. They are not super models of a M39 or ultra rare numbers but simply normal models which I bought because of that finish being on them. It looks quite like what we are looking at here. I know they were refurbed by the Finn's so that coating may have been reused again later by the Russians in an experiment.

I also suggested that they may have been refinished when the usual amount of grease we see on most imports was not on them and resulted in rust and damage on them due to poor storage. If they bead blasted the rust away and then coated the parts with whatever this coating is the damage would be undetectable. If I put oil on the coating on the carbine it rubs right off with no resulting stain or color change.

I have gunsmith buddies that have totally reproduced the color and feel of Parkerizing with a Dura-coat finish to the point of calling them restored and no one even questioning the finish. The only comment I have heard is Boy you did a great job on this Parkerizing because it is much more resistant to scratching or marring. Now there is a new generation of coating out that is easier to do and holds up even better and looks a great deal like Parkerizing.

I have no idea whether these points are valid but if you take a sharp blade and scrape at Parkerizing it will peel away and Phosphate coating will just powder and leave a bright scrape of the metal behind. If this could be done below the wood line it could tell us something. I kind of feel like the older and questioned coating on the M39's I have this will remain a questioned argument here as there are just too many possibilities of what we could be looking at. Yeah I know no answers just further questions for the most part! Sorry? Bill

Only point I would make is.....

If they were done by the Finn's.
Then these rifles were stored by the Russians after the war, then refurbished by them (as apparent by the Russian refurb marks done post war), then "captured?" or "bought" or by the Finns and this finish put on (what ever it is), then given back to the Russians, and stored and crated by the Russians and mixed in with the rest of their exports. To complicated and don't make sense .....why?

I doubt the Finns ever had anything to do with these. These were in the hands of the Russians. What ever was done to them was done by them or by someone afterwards.

It's either a Russian arsenal finish, or the work of a "humper" to sell rifles.

dolk

[ffeng31]

I have no dog in this hunt but am going to throw a few thoughts out anyway.

I have no idea as to the chemical make-up of the coating that has been applied to this rifle. It could be parkerization or it could be phosphate, we needed to be a fly on the wall or we need a chemist to know for sure. Assuming this rifle is a forgery let's look at what it would take to accomplish this feat.

1. remove rifle from crate
2. disassemble rifle, to include removing crossbolt from stock
3. completely degrease every part of rifle
4. apply new finish to every metal part of rifle
5. reassemble rifle
6. apply shellac randomly making sure to slop some on the metal parts, without ruining the finish on the stock, to make it appear that the finish was put on long ago
7. apply import mark

If the importer did this , why only to 18 rifles? And why then after this very labor intensive process would they sell them to a retailer for $95 a piece. That is not good business sense. They have many many other crates of rifles to unpack. Not to mention folks these days gobble up the gunsmith specials and grade B's like they are going out of style.

Now lets consider the possibility of the retailer forging these. It is not possible. The import mark is stamped through the finish. And even if it was , do you think a small retail outfit is going to go to all of this trouble to sell them for $165 ? All the while not claiming them to be anything other than an unexplained anomaly??

How many times have we all said that we have only scratched the surface when it comes to knowledge of how the arsenals handled these rifles ? How many markings and even variations of these rifles are unexplained? In my opinion these rifles fall into that same category. I ,for one, am not willing to point any fingers and I dont think it right that we make any claims that we can not substantiate.

This forum is at the epicenter of the Mosin Nagant collecting community. But that does not make it all knowing and omnipotent in regard to passing judgement on every rifle that is presented here.

My apologies if this ruffles feathers , but again, just my . ( I think I'm up to 4 now )

[tiberium51]

look at the import stamp inside where the stamp has been milled into the receiver there is no black inside of it that would say that it was done after the importer got it.
So it was done before the importer got it?

[Junk Yard Dog]

I have no dog in this hunt but am going to throw a few thoughts out anyway.

I have no idea as to the chemical make-up of the coating that has been applied to this rifle. It could be parkerization or it could be phosphate, we needed to be a fly on the wall or we need a chemist to know for sure. Assuming this rifle is a forgery let's look at what it would take to accomplish this feat.

1. remove rifle from crate
2. disassemble rifle, to include removing crossbolt from stock
3. completely degrease every part of rifle
4. apply new finish to every metal part of rifle
5. reassemble rifle
6. apply shellac randomly making sure to slop some on the metal parts, without ruining the finish on the stock, to make it appear that the finish was put on long ago
7. apply import mark

If the importer did this , why only to 18 rifles? And why then after this very labor intensive process would they sell them to a retailer for $95 a piece. That is not good business sense. They have many many other crates of rifles to unpack. Not to mention folks these days gobble up the gunsmith specials and grade B's like they are going out of style.

Now lets consider the possibility of the retailer forging these. It is not possible. The import mark is stamped through the finish. And even if it was , do you think a small retail outfit is going to go to all of this trouble to sell them for $165 ? All the while not claiming them to be anything other than an unexplained anomaly??

How many times have we all said that we have only scratched the surface when it comes to knowledge of how the arsenals handled these rifles ? How many markings and even variations of these rifles are unexplained? In my opinion these rifles fall into that same category. I ,for one, am not willing to point any fingers and I dont think it right that we make any claims that we can not substantiate.

This forum is at the epicenter of the Mosin Nagant collecting community. But that does not make it all knowing and omnipotent in regard to passing judgement on every rifle that is presented here.

My apologies if this ruffles feathers , but again, just my . ( I think I'm up to 4 now )

I will take issue with a few points here later, right now I have work to do.

[Junk Yard Dog]

I do not suspect an importer of doing this, importers don't give a shit, they want to move product as quickly as they can with the least output of capital once they own the product. I suspect a small dealer of doing this, someone with a gunsmith shop maybe, even a Bubba who bought a crate to flip. No importer is going to spend the bread to do something like this, take Classic Arms for example, the importers sold them regular 91/30 rifles, it was Classic, a dealer, who chromed them, I suspect something similar of happening here. Dealers will spend a bit in hopes of grabbing a bit more of your money. Classic probably used lesser grade rifles they were having trouble moving, same deal here I am sure. Parkerizing can be done at home with no special equipment, the kits to do it are not expensive, I saw a guy do it on his bedroom floor to a type 53 back in the 90's, and it came out looking exactly like the posted rifle. Hard chroming is a commercial process, it's expensive and heavily regulated, it requires a shops facilities and skilled people to carry out the work, You do not just pick up a chrome kit and work at home. All that and yet Classic chromed hundreds of rifles, why would a similar dealer not be bothered to do the same with parkerizing. The guy I watched do it was as unskilled as they come, the worst gunsmith in the world, I wouldn't have him paint a fence with whitewash, yet he got good results with that simple kit. This would not be an expensive proposition for even a small gunshop to do. As for the import mark, it looks to me like there is residue down in the stamping. Because heat is not involved with the park application if you wanted to keep that marking clear all you need do is run some wax down in there, and later remove it with a hair dryer. That's an old trick used to keep serial numbers legible when painting something on a car.

As for omnipotent , if that was the case then why ain't I rich?....Oh yea, the collecting thing keeps me poor, however as for passing judgment, if it shows up on my board and my opinion is asked I will give said opinion. I back that opinion with 40 years of collecting, not just Mosins, but everything, I am not always right, but I do have a nose for Bubba, back before the 'net we had to develop that skill, and even I have been taken at least the one time. This board is not the epicenter of milsurp collecting, flattering as that description may be, we are more a gathering place for serious collectors to exchange information, and show off the latest new toys. I saw the epicenter once, many years ago, late in the evening after a day of shooting, the cigars and brandy were out, the table full of guns, and a few thousand years of experience sitting in the deep leather chairs. Some of those guys fought in the Great War, to them a WW2 weapon was "new" and the States War "recent", "old" was The Revolution ( American Revolution) The gun story's those men could tell are the stuff dreams are made of, first hand accounts of visits to Bannerman Arms in NYC before the War ( Both World Wars), descriptions of German weapons used in The War, they forgot more about milsurps from the 19th and early 20th century than I will ever know. All gone now, the men, the place, the time, but that was the epicenter of all milsurp knowledge.