First timer here.. Two new Mosins

[Chiroptile]

Thank you all for your hospitality!

I will try to post some photos of all the markings on these rifles in a bit..

This Molot guy really has me scratching my head here.. Spent a good part of my morning digging through Russian forums as well as Russian retailers. With regard to their Mosins it looks like they build hunting rifles inspired by the MN. They also offer them in different calibers. The KO-91/30 they offer is a smooth bore .410 caliber shotshell variant. Their KO-44 carbine is 7.62 x 53? It also doesn't feature the folding bayonet. This is for the Russian domestic market and I didn't see any mention of refurbishing existing rifles for export.. I did read some people's comments stating that Molot rebarrels their guns, but those were few and far, and all related to the Russian markets, again.. I also understand that the company is going through some financial troubles at the moment.. I was unable to find any information on their refurbishing military surplus weapons..

I did drive out to a gun shop over in the next town and found a 1934 Izhevsk 91/30 with a hex receiver. It had what looks like a very slight counterbore.. Just deep enough to crater out the crown a little.. Also looks like the lower handguard had cracked off about an inch off the tip where it was reattached with some sort of resin..

Weldon, thank you for all the links. Looks like I've got some reading to do.. Really appreciate you all taking your time to respond..

[Chiroptile]

Take pictures for us, also how did you come about purchasing them.

Judi.. I'm fairly new to firearms. Recently left New York City for school in a much more 2nd amendment friendly state. My first two were handguns and I wanted a long gun for my next purchase. First learned about Mosins last year and have been stewing on one since then.. A couple of weeks ago I stumbled across this forum and started lurking. The more I learned the more I wanted one.. And now I have two.. Came pretty close to three with that Hex earlier today..

A big part of it is knowing that these guys saw things I could not even begin to imagine.. Would like to provide them with a nice and comfortable home for their retirement.. Dusty old crate is no way to live..

[Junk Yard Dog]

Damn right it's no way to live, I make sure there is no dust on any of the rifles in my crate! If you came out of the city then you probably have seen some of the sort of things that these rifles experienced. I recall my last visit to the city, the morning of 14 July 1977, the place was a mess.

[polymerase2]

Get the Mosin-Nagant Rifle by Terence Lapin. Best $20 you will ever spend. Of course with your new knowledge you will be able to spot some interesting rifles at pawn shops and gun shows. You can whip out your Okie headspace gauge to check out your potential purchase and before you know it; the purchases will begin.
Not a bad hobby, once you get the basic tools you can amortize them over several rifles. You can still buy a lot of the Mosins for under $200. And these will be in decent shape and shootable.
No one will flame you on this forum for the most basic noob questions. I asked them all.
Just don't use the word sandpaper or polyurethane unless you are building a gun rack.
My best piece of advice, never work on a gun on a deck, you will drop something and it will find the crack and dissapear.

[gurn]

and never use thats Judi's only

[Chiroptile]

Haha.. Okay, I'll try to stay off the soap box. Won't be easy. And Polymerase, I noticed that many posts from even two years ago mention people picking the rifles up for 75 dollars. Don't see any listed at that price anymore.. Think I will need to pace myself a little because I'm mostly living off of student loans at this point. Then again, I guess I can also use that same argument to support getting a couple more.

Junk Yard Dog, you know.. I still have my family back there and visit them when school allows it. Giuliani did a good job cleaning up the city back in the 90s. And Bloomberg kept it up for his first two terms. As much as I find myself at odds with the man on a good deal of issues, I have to hand it to him where he earns it. That said, throughout the "Clean City" years, I've been robbed at knifepoint twice, had my apartment burglarized, had my car broken into on three separate occasions, and all three - my mother, my sister, and my at-the-time lady had been approached in the street by this gentleman here..

http://nypost.com/2011/11/07/fake-frenc ... -25-years/

Last couple of years I've noticed the city starting to take on a little water.. Worry for my fam back there every day I read the newspaper here.. Still, I won't lie, there's a special place in my heart for NYC and I get nostalgic for it on occasion. Currently live out in Missouri.

[kamakazi339]

As polymer mentioned before don't be afraid to ask questions. One of the reasons I got hooked on mosins and this forums is because when I got my first mosin I knew nothing about it. I posted up pics and the fine people here were spouting knowledge out their ears in no time. Great atmosphere great people and great rifles.

[desdem12]

welcome. Nice pair

[WeldonHunter]

Thank you all for your hospitality!

I will try to post some photos of all the markings on these rifles in a bit..

This Molot guy really has me scratching my head here.. Spent a good part of my morning digging through Russian forums as well as Russian retailers. With regard to their Mosins it looks like they build hunting rifles inspired by the MN. They also offer them in different calibers. The KO-91/30 they offer is a smooth bore .410 caliber shotshell variant. Their KO-44 carbine is 7.62 x 53? It also doesn't feature the folding bayonet. This is for the Russian domestic market and I didn't see any mention of refurbishing existing rifles for export.. I did read some people's comments stating that Molot rebarrels their guns, but those were few and far, and all related to the Russian markets, again.. I also understand that the company is going through some financial troubles at the moment.. I was unable to find any information on their refurbishing military surplus weapons..

I did drive out to a gun shop over in the next town and found a 1934 Izhevsk 91/30 with a hex receiver. It had what looks like a very slight counterbore.. Just deep enough to crater out the crown a little.. Also looks like the lower handguard had cracked off about an inch off the tip where it was reattached with some sort of resin..

Weldon, thank you for all the links. Looks like I've got some reading to do.. Really appreciate you all taking your time to respond..

I think maybe you're seeing the modern version of some of these rifles Molot makes. They make newly produced M44 and M91/30 they call a KO-44M and a KO-91/30M. These are newly produced rifles that resemble the originals and are based off of the military version. They have versions of these that have scopes and are unscoped. They also are selling a bunch of versions of the rifles we collect. They are the M44, M38, M91/30 and M91/30 PU Sniper. These are all authentic parts and possibly arsenal refurbished rifles. The controversy with the older mil-surps is we aren't sure they weren't refurbed by Molot. Here's what the new version of the Molot KO-91/30 PU looks like just to give you an idea how different they look.

[Chiroptile]

My Molot has all of the military stamps in it, which is why I believe it may be a commercial refurb of an actual M44? About to chalk up my receivers and take some photos for you guys.. Curious to hear what you guys might see in them..

[WeldonHunter]

My Molot has all of the military stamps in it, which is why I believe it may be a commercial refurb of an actual M44? About to chalk up my receivers and take some photos for you guys.. Curious to hear what you guys might see in them..

I think you're confusing things here. The stamps on your rifle, the M44 and the M91/30, will be the ones put there but the Military and have no bearing on whether it was refurbed by the arsenal or commercially. The Molots and known arsenal refurbs all have the same markings. Besides the newly laser etched stamps Molot put on it. The Russian arsenal marks are actual stamps pressed into the metal either by a machine or hand stamping. If you look at your M91/30 that came from Century has no markings on it other then the Century import mark and the various stamps put there by the military. The M44 has similar markings to those on the M91/30. Here's a few links to look through. http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinMarks01.htm and http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinIDII.htm There's a lot of stamps on these rifles that we know little about. Most are inspection stamps of one type of another. The Molot identifiers are easy to spot though. They're put on with a laser. Don't know if you saw this but here's what some of the Molot marks look like. http://www.russian-mosin-nagant-forum.c ... 64&t=16579

[Chiroptile]

Okay, so the first one I'm going to show you guys up close is the 9130

Again, seems to be all matching Izhevsk. How would I know if this was a forced match?




The bolt also has an Izhevsk factory stamp on it..




In this one you can see three stamps in the wood.. One is the letter H inside of a circle. Right next to it is an O or a zero.. And above it, I can't make it out
Then there is that dot with two arrows sticking out of it in opposite directions.

There is this little symbol just behind the trigger guard, and it looks like the Russian letter G


This little symbol just in front of the trigger guard




And this is the best photo I could get of the bore..


Finally, this is what the rifle was caked in when I took delivery.. Is this not cosmoline?

[Chiroptile]

I think you're confusing things here. The stamps on your rifle, the M44 and the M91/30, will be the ones put there but the Military and have no bearing on whether it was refurbed by the arsenal or commercially.

This is true. I was reading on the Russian forums today that Molot might be reproducing the design from fresh.. For example, You could get their KO-91/30 in Russia, but it would be barreled for a .410 shot shell.. It wouldn't have any of the old military markers on it.. Essentially a 91/30 built in 2012. I thought you were referring to those. My apologies..

[BuckeyeSgt]

Great looking laminate stock. It is force matched. Look at the different fonts on the 7 in the serial number.

[Chiroptile]

Okay, now for the Molot.. This guy just looks ready to go straight out the box. My 1911 was more greasy coming out for the first time than this rifle..
Here are some up close photos.. The number 5 inside a triangle is stamped into it in a bunch of places.. Both, metal parts and wood..

















Also, I just noticed when pointing it that the rear sight seemed to cant a little. I set it on the rest, leveled the butt, and noticed that the stock/barrel assembly up front seemed to cant to the left a little bit. Looks as thought the butt is rotated to the right along the rifle's horizontal axis..


And, I don't know if you guys can see it, or if it's my eyes, but it looks as though the rear sight is canted to the right.


Maybe it's just me.. Thank you for taking a look at these guys for me..

[Chiroptile]

Great looking laminate stock. It is force matched. Look at the different fonts on the 7 in the serial number.

I see what you mean.. Thank you.. Learning a lot from you guys!

[WeldonHunter]

Like BuckeyeSgt said look at the font differences to see if something is force matched. On yours look at the 7 and the 1 on the barrel compared to the other numbered parts. They're different. That said it's just one way to tell but sometimes even the fonts are the same or so close it's hard to tell. More importantly the rifles that went through the Russian refurb program are all force matched. There's a rare rifle that wasn't but by the nature of how they were refurbed they force matched them one way or another. This is how the refurb process worked. They stripped the rifles completely to the point that the only parts still attached to each other were the barrel and receiver. That is unless one of those were damaged and either the barrel or receiver was also removed and replaced. The evidence of this is seen with receivers having different dates than the barrel on a lot of the rifles. Then all the separated parts were put in containers along other parts from other rifles. Barrel bands in one container, bolt bodies in another, butt plates in another and so on. The original rifle now no longer existed except the barreled receiver and that's only if those were kept together. In the US the receiver is considered the rifle because that's where the serial number is but on Mosin Nagants along with a lot of other European rifles the barrel is the rifle and the part the serial number is on. Once the parts were checked and repaired/refurbished they went to where the rifles would be rebuilt. During this process any part besides the barrel had the serial number removed/scrubbed or lined out. Then the person reassembling the rifle would grab a barreled receiver and parts from bins to reassemble the rifle. The parts that were numbered before and are now scrubbed/lined out would be renumbered to match the barrel they're building the rifle with. This is force matching. They either restamped them, over where the old number used to be, next to the old number that was lined out or electropenciled them on.

The stuff under the sight that you asked if it was cosmoline is grease. Cosmoline is an american product/invention and is a thick waxy substance. The Russians didn't use it. It's very hard to get off too so you'd know it if you were dealing with it. You mentioned the bolt has an Izhevsk stamp. Have you disassembled the bolt? I'll bet some of the parts are Tula with a Tula star also. That really doesn't matter though because Izhevsk was the more prolific arsenal and though it's expected to see both arsenal stamps on a refurbished rifle some were all of one arsenal simply by chance. That coupled with the fact it's in a postwar laminate stock which if memory serves me were put on the these rifles mostly during the refurb process after WW2 evidenced by the push in stock escutcheons which were used from late 1944 on and the rifle is a 1943.

As for all the various stamps you pointed out. Most we have no idea what they mean and are most likely inspection stamps/cartouches. The Russians don't share much about their military manufacturing process so we may never know what a lot of them mean. Here's another bit of info. If you ever wondered about the serial numbers and how they correlate to production as far as dates or numbers of rifles made. Well they don't. The Russians numbered rifles all over the map. The Cyrillic charactors and the sequence of numbers mean nothing really and though they might correspond to a certain time period during a given year by no means can be used to find dates of production or numbers produced. They changed them randomly during the course of the year from everything we've seen.

Okay, so the first one I'm going to show you guys up close is the 9130

Again, seems to be all matching Izhevsk. How would I know if this was a forced match?




The bolt also has an Izhevsk factory stamp on it..




In this one you can see three stamps in the wood.. One is the letter H inside of a circle. Right next to it is an O or a zero.. And above it, I can't make it out
Then there is that dot with two arrows sticking out of it in opposite directions.

There is this little symbol just behind the trigger guard, and it looks like the Russian letter G


This little symbol just in front of the trigger guard




And this is the best photo I could get of the bore..


Finally, this is what the rifle was caked in when I took delivery.. Is this not cosmoline?

[Chiroptile]

So what you're saying is that the Soviet Union ran the biggest Bubba operation known to mankind?

[WeldonHunter]

This rifle was imported by IO/InterOrdnance the same place that my Molot PU was imported by. It's definitely a refurbished rifle and is force matched. It's also a not so common year. It's a nice rifle. Regardless of the Molot connection it's one I'd hold on to. As far as the sight being canted I can't really tell but don't do anything about it unless there's something that stands out with the way the rear sight is installed. Unless it's a broken part there's not much you could do anyway. These rifles are not precision made rifles and have some inconsistencies so it's possible that it isn't fitted to the stock as well as it could be. Both of these rifles need to be disassembled, cleaned and checked before firing them while also doing the checks I spoke about previously. Headspace and firing pin protrusion. While they're apart just look for potential problems. Though these rifles were refurbed you have no idea what might have been missed. It's better to be safe than sorry.

Okay, now for the Molot.. This guy just looks ready to go straight out the box. My 1911 was more greasy coming out for the first time than this rifle..
Here are some up close photos.. The number 5 inside a triangle is stamped into it in a bunch of places.. Both, metal parts and wood..

















Also, I just noticed when pointing it that the rear sight seemed to cant a little. I set it on the rest, leveled the butt, and noticed that the stock/barrel assembly up front seemed to cant to the left a little bit. Looks as thought the butt is rotated to the right along the rifle's horizontal axis..


And, I don't know if you guys can see it, or if it's my eyes, but it looks as though the rear sight is canted to the right.


Maybe it's just me.. Thank you for taking a look at these guys for me..

[WeldonHunter]

So what you're saying is that the Soviet Union ran the biggest Bubba operation known to mankind?

No not really. Bubba likes to add things to rifles that were never part of it's original configuration and cut things off that should be there. The Soviets just rebuilt them. Hey they could do whatever they wanted because they designed the rifle and were an arsenal. They put a scope on the M91/30 and it was never really designed to be scoped. They could get away with it though because they were the big red menace, lol.