Are these PU snipers real

[blewisjr]

Hello everyone,

I am looking to get my first Mosin Nagant. I came across what seems to be a PU sniper. The description says original in it for the scope, turned down bolt but as been arsenal refinished.

Wondering if these are real or if I will have better luck going for a standard 91/30

http://www.jgsales.com/mosin-nagant-91- ... 62522.html

[redspoon]

Read thru this recent post, it might help you out. Welcome to the forum.

http://209.140.27.248/~russianm/viewtop ... 70#p258319

[blewisjr]

Ok so it is safe to say so to speak that it is not legit. This is fine I just saw it and was wondering if it indeed could be.

I think I will go for a regular 91/30 then as it is less money which means less anger if the PU came and was just a reworked standard infantry issue.

When they say arsenal refinished I am assuming it is a legit arsenal that did the work and not done afterwards? I understand it is going to be force matched anyway because that is how military rifles are everywhere I just don't want a rifle that was refinished after the fact by a non military arsenal.

Anyone have any ideas where to look for one or is the $130 J&G one legit in the fact that a military arsenal did the work on it?

[WeldonHunter]

Ok so it is safe to say so to speak that it is not legit. This is fine I just saw it and was wondering if it indeed could be.

I think I will go for a regular 91/30 then as it is less money which means less anger if the PU came and was just a reworked standard infantry issue.

When they say arsenal refinished I am assuming it is a legit arsenal that did the work and not done afterwards? I understand it is going to be force matched anyway because that is how military rifles are everywhere I just don't want a rifle that was refinished after the fact by a non military arsenal.

Anyone have any ideas where to look for one or is the $130 J&G one legit in the fact that a military arsenal did the work on it?

If you want one that is universally accepted as authentic the RGuns are what you want. http://www.rguns.net/rifles/rifles-bolt.shtml

I'm not sure where the PUs that J&G is selling are from before coming into the country but they state they that Century Arms is the US importer. Chances are very high they are from Molot and they have a cloud over them until we can find out more about who/where they were refurbed.

Most places selling PU's these days claim they're arsenally refinished because that's what the importers are telling them but I've talked to some of them and they really have no idea where they were refurbed.

[blewisjr]

I apologize my last post was not about the PU's I realize now that odds are against me on that. The last post about the arsenal refinish was about the infantry rifles.

[ffeng31]

In the case of the standard 91/30's , I think it is safe to say that all of the current retailers are selling legit , arsenal refurbished, rifles. Trinity Arms is a sponsor (link at the top of the page) . You might try them . If not , I know many folks here have purchased from AIM Surplus with good results..

[blewisjr]

Ok thanks a bunch for all the info I will see what I can come across and of course once I get it I will have pictures

[BenedictGomez]

The last post about the arsenal refinish was about the infantry rifles.

There's absolutely zero profit motive to play hankey-pankey with a run-of-the-bill, normal, 91/30. Just order from wherever is cheapest if you just want a shooter. Frankly, if you just want a common shooter, I'd just go to your local Cabelas or Ganger Mountain or Pawn shot so you can inspect the bore, stock, etc.... and make sure you get a good one. Especially if you dont have a C&R license.

[WeldonHunter]

I apologize my last post was not about the PU's I realize now that odds are against me on that. The last post about the arsenal refinish was about the infantry rifles.

I forgot to welcome you to the forum, Welcome! The reason I posted the link to RGuns PU Snipers above is the odds aren't against you if you want one that's an authentic arsernal reburbed M91/30 PU. They aren't battlefield pickups or bring back rifles but the have been vetted as coming from storage after being refurbed and are accepted by anyone that knows these rifles.

If you want an M91/30 there's quite a few listed here. http://gun-deals.com/index.php?dealtype ... 4&subcat=5 Our sponsors are included in those listings and one, Cope's Distributing, is offering free shipping this weekend. If you have a question about a specific rifle being offered we'll be glad to help.

[clayshooter2]

Ok so it is safe to say so to speak that it is not legit. This is fine I just saw it and was wondering if it indeed could be.

I think I will go for a regular 91/30 then as it is less money which means less anger if the PU came and was just a reworked standard infantry issue.

When they say arsenal refinished I am assuming it is a legit arsenal that did the work and not done afterwards? I understand it is going to be force matched anyway because that is how military rifles are everywhere I just don't want a rifle that was refinished after the fact by a non military arsenal.

Anyone have any ideas where to look for one or is the $130 J&G one legit in the fact that a military arsenal did the work on it?

Quite honestly this is the only forum I have ever heard the Molot PU's being accused of being non legit. I am in the belief that they are legit. From the rifles I have seen there is more evidence that they were not recently refurbished that evidence that they were. All that is 100% known for sure is Molot/Polyany (which is a state arsenal) packaged and exported these rifles. RGUNS snipers do carry a premium over Molot exports, but there is no evidence that the Molot PU snipers are not legit arsenal refurbs. Classic Arms has been selling them recently too.

[desdem12]

These are listed as coming from century on J&Gs website, are they molots then or just century fakes? Molot may be real (or close) but century has been a bubba for along time.

[Miller Tyme]

Ok so it is safe to say so to speak that it is not legit. This is fine I just saw it and was wondering if it indeed could be.

I think I will go for a regular 91/30 then as it is less money which means less anger if the PU came and was just a reworked standard infantry issue.

When they say arsenal refinished I am assuming it is a legit arsenal that did the work and not done afterwards? I understand it is going to be force matched anyway because that is how military rifles are everywhere I just don't want a rifle that was refinished after the fact by a non military arsenal.

Anyone have any ideas where to look for one or is the $130 J&G one legit in the fact that a military arsenal did the work on it?

Quite honestly this is the only forum I have ever heard the Molot PU's being accused of being non legit. I am in the belief that they are legit. From the rifles I have seen there is more evidence that they were not recently refurbished that evidence that they were. All that is 100% known for sure is Molot/Polyany (which is a state arsenal) packaged and exported these rifles. RGUNS snipers do carry a premium over Molot exports, but there is no evidence that the Molot PU snipers are not legit arsenal refurbs. Classic Arms has been selling them recently too.

+1 Clayshooter, owning several from Molot, R=Guns, and Samco, plus a non-import marked PU I have to agree, nothing to support these being refurbed by Molot or regular 91/30's with scopes added.

[Miller Tyme]

These are listed as coming from century on J&Gs website, are they molots then or just century fakes? Molot may be real (or close) but century has been a bubba for along time.

Recent Centurys are reproductions, but early Centurys ( early to mid 90's) where legit snipers.

[Darryl]

Quite honestly this is the only forum I have ever heard the Molot PU's being accused of being non legit. I am in the belief that they are legit. From the rifles I have seen there is more evidence that they were not recently refurbished that evidence that they were. All that is 100% known for sure is Molot/Polyany (which is a state arsenal) packaged and exported these rifles. RGUNS snipers do carry a premium over Molot exports, but there is no evidence that the Molot PU snipers are not legit arsenal refurbs. Classic Arms has been selling them recently too.

Perhaps you should ask JYD if he cares that we are the only forum "QUESTIONING" these Molot. My god, why is everyone so frightened that we will ask questions about these rifles. We have a ton of questions about them. Frankly, I could care less what other forums think. As for Jim, I'll leave that to him to comment on weather or not he care what the "other forums" think.

The word "legit" is an incorrect word to use. It makes it sound like you are calling them "fakes" which is a different thing. I don't think they are "fakes". Others do...so what. We have all kinds of views here. We don't "lock step in line behind a "locked in view" here.

However, I have pointed out three separate items that is on the Molots that "proofs" they have been done recently. Maybe you have evidence that shows I'm wrong? Do you? I'd like to see it.

This is the "new story" coming up that "Molot is a arsenal". It used to be that "Molot didn't refurbish them or touch them". Then it was, "well, they handled them and repackaged them, but didn't refurbish them". Now it is, "well Molot is an arsenal so it's OK".
Molot is not a state arsenal now. They have not been owned by the Russian since the fall of the Soviets where everything was owned by the Soviets (communism). They are a private entity now and have been for some time. In fact, they are having financial problems. They never handled Mosins back in the Soviet days. They supplied parts for other firearms (not Mosins) (a manufacturer). But they are not an arsenal. I think most people know that. They are a private company selling hunting rifles also. The Russian government doesn't sell hunting rifles. So, if you are saying that Molot put these together fine. I accept that.

But if that is the case, then they were not refurbished by an arsenal but a private entity. Everyone knows who the arsenals of the Soviets are and were. Molot is not on that list. This thinking is sort of like the guys over there that bought up the machinery and the original building where the scopes used to be made. Then saying they are made on the same equipment and in the same plant....."FAKES"!

Dolk

"Classic Arms has been selling them recently too."
You sound like someone trying to push rifles for the sponsors. You don't have to do that here on these forums. It's not required.






.

[Junk Yard Dog]

I don't give a shit what other internet boards do or say, that is the business of their administrators and owners. I don't visit other boards, and I question everything and anything, and will keep right on doing it. Trust a Russian company to give me the straight story? Are you f&^%in' kidding me? Me? I lived through the wonderful times we had during the Cold War, I am hardwired to distrust anything a Russian company might say, or do especially when they have a profit driven motive to bullshit me. In this case their silence speaks louder than words, and it has my bullshit meter pegged into the red. If they were giving the stuff away, or selling it for under a hundred bucks I would ignore it and not care, but these assholes want real money for this shit, and they are unwilling to share the backstory. Molot is not paying my bills, I owe them nothing, and have no reason to not question anything, and everything about them, and their products. There are no sponsors here, nobody owns me, or has a leash on my mouth, I am a collector first, and I am the sort of old school collector who wants to know everything about what I am collecting. I am not collecting relics to get rich, or because I saw some bullshit movie and think they make me look cool on the range, I am in this for the history. I collect relics of history, not hunting rifles and I want items that are as they were when last in government control, not something that has been worked over to make it look pretty, or shoot better by some commercial outfit be it Gibbs, Mitchells, or Molot . Until I get the full skinny on what Molot is up to I will be questioning everything about them, it's a collector thing, it's what we do. In the meantime I have no intention of suggesting to anyone interested in collecting original relics that they start with a Molot marked Mosin as so far as I know or have been told, or Molot has stated, they are nothing more than hunting rifles.
The other day someone told me they read someplace that Molot was a Russian state run entity. I have no idea where they picked that tidbit up, it's a crock of shit. Molot is a commercial enterprise that happens to use some facilities once used by Izhevsk, or at least their parent company does. Civilian commercial operation privately owned and in business to make a profit.

[Modean]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning, especially given the lack of any answers from Molot. The problem I see here from time to time is that opinions (and that is all any of us have, as no one has facts) are being presented as fact. I don't know what Molot does to their rifles, and no one else here does either.

[Darryl]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning, especially given the lack of any answers from Molot. The problem I see here from time to time is that opinions (and that is all any of us have, as no one has facts) are being presented as fact. I don't know what Molot does to their rifles, and no one else here does either.

Yes we do know what Molot does to rifles. If you have been in collecting for any length of time you would know exactly what Molot has done in the past .......and and they still do.

They make "fakes" and always have (I'm talking never have been sniper rifles with fake after market scopes and mounts on standard M91/30's). They take Mosins and put on new barrels and refinish them and sell it as a "hunting rifle" also, and always have. We know what their capabilities are for sure. If these Molot snipers is the first you have heard of Molot, then maybe you wouldn't suspect them of any "foul play". I question anything with their name on it.

It would be like Mitchel's Mausers being chosen to handle all the M1 Garands for the CMP and having them come out with questionable features and all dolled up. Certainly we would not suspect Mitchel's of doing anything to them?..would we??? That is the problem here. Molot's reputation for altering Mosins and the conditions we are finding now. Hence the questions.

Opinions are not being presented as "facts" here. They are being discussed, which is more than I can say for other forums. The facts are what you can see in front of your eyes. It is what's causing difficulty for collectors to accept them blindly. Add that to Molots reputation and.......

Now, I have presented what concerns me and if you chose to ignore them, that's OK. Just don't come on these forums and try to stop us from discussing it here.

Dolk

[Miller Tyme]

The other day someone told me they read someplace that Molot was a Russian state run entity. I have no idea where they picked that tidbit up, it's a crock of shit. Molot is a commercial enterprise that happens to use some facilities once used by Izhevsk, or at least their parent company does. Civilian commercial operation privately owned and in business to make a profit.

Molot is for all practicalpurposes controlled by the state, here is the paper trail for those who are intrested....

Molot is actually made up of 4 companies.... Please note the highlighted portion

http://www.alacrastore.com/company-snap ... SC-4119995

Molot OAO (Vyatskie Polyany Machine-Building Plant Molot OJSC or Molot OJSC) is a Russia-based company engaged in the manufacture of arms. The Company’s product portfolio comprises hunting smooth bored shotguns, hunting rifle, traumatic guns, signal guns, arbalests, Kalashnikov light machine-guns and others. Molot OAO operates through four wholly owned subsidiaries: Sanatoriy-profilaktoriy Molot OOO, a health treatment and rehabilitation center, TsKTV Molot OOO, a cable television provider, Molot-Industriya OOO engaged in real estate maintenance and services and Molot-Oruzhie OOO, engaged in the weapon production. As of December 31, 2011, the Company’s major shareholder was Concern Izhmash OAO with a stake of 50%. On April 10, 2013, the Arbitration Court of Kemerovo region declared bankruptcy of the Company.

Business Summary Kontsern Izhmash OAO (Concern Izhmash OJSC) is a Russia-based holding company involved in the firearm production for defense and civil applications. The Company’s product portfolio includes shotguns, self-loading and hand operated rifles, sport rifles, air rifles and mock-ups, different types of knives, as well as spare parts for hunting weapons, ammunition, choke tubes, magazines for shotguns and rifles, and mounts, among others. Kontsern Izhmash OAO operates through 13 subsidiaries and numerous affiliated companies. As of June 29, 2012, the Company’s major shareholder was Izhevskiy mashzavod OAO with a stake of 69.81%. On September 10, 2012, the Arbitration Court of the Republic of Udmurtia decided to declare bankruptcy of the Company.



Concern Izhmash OAO is a holding company, here is it’s business summary again please note the highlighted portion

http://www.crmz.com/Report/ReportPrevie ... Id=8631154


Business Summary
Kontsern Izhmash OAO (Concern Izhmash OJSC) is a Russia-based holding company involved in the firearm production for defense and civil applications. The Company’s product portfolio includes shotguns, self-loading and hand operated rifles, sport rifles, air rifles and mock-ups, different types of knives, as well as spare parts for hunting weapons, ammunition, choke tubes, magazines for shotguns and rifles, and mounts, among others. Kontsern Izhmash OAO operates through 13 subsidiaries and numerous affiliated companies. As of June 29, 2012, the Company’s major shareholder was Izhevskiy mashzavod OAO with a stake of 69.81%. On September 10, 2012, the Arbitration Court of the Republic of Udmurtia decided to declare bankruptcy of the Company.




Izhevskiy mashzavod OAO is a Russian company and here is its business summary

http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/c ... =IGMAI.RTS

Izhevskiy mashzavod OAO (Izhevskiy mashinostroitel'nyi zavod OAO or Izhevskiy mashzavod OJSC) is a Russia-based company active in the production of motor vehicles, weapons, metallurgical products and machines. It is also engaged in the rental of machinery and industrial equipment, as well as in the rental of non-residential buildings. The Company's products include automobiles, motorcycles, military firearms, sporting rifles, hunting guns, aircraft automatic guns, guided artillery gunning complexes, test vehicles for maintenance and a repair workshop for tank armaments. It also offers weapon locks, ignition locks, gas meters and knives, as well as lathes and metallurgical plant products, such as die forgings and iron castings. Izhevskiy mashzavod operates through numerous subsidiaries and affiliated companies, located domestically. As of December 31, 2011, the Company’s major shareholder was GK Rostekhnologii with a stake of 57.01%

And finally GK Rostekhnologii, more commonly know as Rostec here is there summary

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostec



Rostec (Russian: Ростех - Rostekh), formerly Rostekhnologii (Russian: Ростехнологии) is a Russian state corporation (a non-profit entity type) established in late 2007 to promote development, production and export of hi-tech industrial products for civil and defense sectors. It brings together 663 entities which form 13 holding companies.[1] Eight holding companies operate in the defense-industry complex and five three of them are involved in civil sectors.[2] Rostec’s organizations are located in 60 constituents of the Russian Federation and supply goods to over 70 countries worldwide.[3]
Rostekhnologii was founded in 2007 as so called "state corporation", a very special type of legal entity in Russia. The state corporation is established by equity contribution made by the Russian Federation. The organization is headed by Sergey Chemezov.[4] Its headquarters are located in Moscow.


So it is hard to argue that controlling intrest in Molot is not in the hands of the Russian Government.

[millman]

The other day someone told me they read someplace that Molot was a Russian state run entity. I have no idea where they picked that tidbit up, it's a crock of shit. Molot is a commercial enterprise that happens to use some facilities once used by Izhevsk, or at least their parent company does. Civilian commercial operation privately owned and in business to make a profit.

Molot is for all practicalpurposes controlled by the state, here is the paper trail for those who are intrested....

So it is hard to argue that controlling intrest in Molot is in the hands of the Russian Government.

Which is it? Your last sentence seems to directly contradict your first.

[Miller Tyme]

The other day someone told me they read someplace that Molot was a Russian state run entity. I have no idea where they picked that tidbit up, it's a crock of shit. Molot is a commercial enterprise that happens to use some facilities once used by Izhevsk, or at least their parent company does. Civilian commercial operation privately owned and in business to make a profit.

Molot is for all practicalpurposes controlled by the state, here is the paper trail for those who are intrested....

So it is hard to argue that controlling intrest in Molot is in the hands of the Russian Government.

Which is it? Your last sentence seems to directly contradict your first.

Sorry Millman it's hard to believe forgetting one little word like "not" can change a sentence so much.

Corrected now.