Last year for dragoons?

[mitch5690]

So have a buddy I trade stuff with on occassion and he keeps saying he has a few 1930-1931 ex dragoons and he can tell because when they removed the old rear sight the 91/30 sight is shorter an theres a spot where the bluings a lot darker right there. Is there any truth to this? I thought 1929 was the end for the dragoon rifles.

[TulaTom]

I always thought it was 1932 as the last year, but someone on here posted an ex-dragoon that was a 1933. I spot an ex dragoon by looking for the gap where the rear sight dovetails to the barrel. Someone will post a picture.

[racerguy00]

There was a gradual phase-out of dragoons into the early 30's

[mitch5690]

Are the late phase out ones anything special? Or nothing to look twice at?

[desdem12]

I thought 32 also. I have a 31 dragoon and Steve SA1911 has a 31 Izhevsk dragoon. Not sure if I have seen a 32 but I think so.

[Dan4good]

junk yard dog always says the 91/30 didnt catually start fully till 33 i belive had to use the remainder of the ex dragoon recievers

[racerguy00]

Early 30's dragoon and 91/30 receivers would have been the same.

[Junk Yard Dog]

1933 could still have been a dragoon rifle, I have not heard of any reported ex dragoons from 1934 but it's possible.

[Junk Yard Dog]

[Marcus]

Unless something has changed, Tula production numbers for late dragoon rifles are unavailable. However, late dragoon production numbers for Izhevsk and early 91/30 production numbers for both arsenals are available.

1930:
Izhevsk: Dragoon rifles - 123,666 , 91/30 rifles - 30,000
Tula: 91/30 rifles - 72,000

1931:
Izhevsk: Dragoon rifles - 76,228 , 91/30 rifles - 45,470
Tula: 91/30 rifles - 108,530

1932:
Izhevsk: Dragoon rifles - 112 , 91/30 rifles - 128,111
Tula: 91/30 rifles - 153,340

1933:
Izhevsk: 91/30 rifles - 134,301
Tula: 91/30 rifles - 104,989

As Tula Tom pointed out, you can tell an updated former 1930 to 1932 dragoon from a 91/30 by the small gap between the back of the rear sight and the barrel on a former dragoon. No fact or truth that I have ever observed or heard of as far as a 91/30 rear sight being shorter or any difference in bluing.

I've never seen or heard of a 1933 dated ex-dragoon, but it is not impossible that a couple might have been assembled with remaining M91 style rear sights. It's also possible (as we have learned with Mosins, anything is possible) - and more likey - that a left over dragoon barrel from the 1932 or earlier period might have been used to assemble a new 91/30 in early 1933.

[yatzee982]

I owned a 1934 Tula ex-Dragoon that in a moment of weakness I sold ... bonehead move :( Here are a couple of pic's of it that I keep around to torture myself with.

[Junk Yard Dog]

1934 ex dragoon, selling......huge mistake.

[countryboy3006]

I posted this one a while back
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3975

It is a 1933 ex dragoon

[Junk Yard Dog]

Number 85, I remember that one

[Marcus]

1933 and 1934 dated rifles with the gap at the rear sight base raise some interesting questions.

Are these actual dragoon rifles that were later updated with 91/30 rear sights? If so, then these would be the latest known dragoon production. Of course, with Mosins anything is possible - for instance, the PE/PEM top-mount setup was more or less officially replaced with the side-rail setup in 1938, but very limited numbers of top-mount rifles continued to be produced up into the 1942-43 period. Also, the serial number/production/year figures for the Chatellerault M91 rifles are not necessarily accurate, as rifles in the serial number range for one year have been observed with another date.

It is also possible that these were left over earlier barrels that were marked, serial numbered, and built into rifles in 1933 and 1934.

One possible indication might be the rear sight bases - if these are the early 91/30 style with the little set screw at the back, these rifles could have either been originally made as 91/30's using earlier barrels, OR they could have been made as dragoons and then had the rear sights replaced in the 1930's-early 1940's period before the bases with the crosspins instead of the set screw went into general use. If these bases do not have the set screw, it is an indication that these were originally dragoon rifles that were later upgraded.

It would also be interesting to know if the bases have the crosspins. If these are bases with the set screw that were later crosspinned, it is additional evidence that these rifles were originally built as 91/30's, not upgraded dragoons....although they could also be dragoon rifles that were updated to 91/30 specs in the 1930's and then had the crosspins added later, such as in post-war refurb.

A potential 1933 or 1934 ex-dragoon would be a very rare - perhaps one of a kind - rifle, and selling it would be a very big mistake.

In the past we never really looked at rifles later than 1932 to determine if they were originally dragoons or 91/30's, as it was believed that 1932 was the last year of dragoon production - perhaps we now need to start examining rifles from the 1933 to 1935 period. By the way, I don't recall anyone ever reporting or verifying a 1932 dated rifle with the rear sight gap either.

[Junk Yard Dog]

I have a '32, and a '33 with the gap, the '33 was ID's by K-H in 2007 as an ex dragoon, before I knew about the gap myself. I have never seen a '34, but then I didn't look for one.

[yatzee982]

Yes, I have regretted selling that rifle from the moment I sealed the deal. The gentleman paid me very well for the rifle as it is all serial # matching and it has a brass handguard. The bore on it, to my un-trained eyes, looks immaculate with no counter bore and very strong lands and grooves. It was the first Tula Hex I found out in the wild and a pretty special rifle to me ... but I figured I had some Finned Hex rifles so I didn't really need the Tula :(

I have been thinking of contacting the gentleman again and seeing if he would be willing to sell the rifle back to me. I don't think he is a big Mosin Nagant Collector bit the rifle looked so good he said he had to have it ... who knows maybe he will take pity on me, I can only hope

[Judi and her Mosins]

I have two ex-dragoons, 1927 both are "hex" and one from Tula the other from Iszham. They are only 208 numbers apart on the orignal serial numbers. . I hope to have some pictures of them this weekend go up. That is a very nice Mosin you have. Seems the older ones come full of that red grease. Was yours?....

[Junk Yard Dog]

Izhevsk Judi, are the prefexes the same ( if any) ? Izhevsk retained the hex style receiver until 1935, Tula held out until mid 1936 creating a year with both hex and round receivers. The more recent imports seem to be dripping with grease, however the older refurb imports from 3-10 years back tended to be fairly clean.

[clayshooter2]

Well transitional 91/30's kind of muddy the waters in those 3 years when it comes production numbers.