Bores are always dirty like I shot 100 rounds

[jm190]

Hi All,
When I clean my 91/30 and M44 even after only three or four shoots, it's like I shot a hundred rounds through them. It takes several passes with solvent soaked patches and a bore brush before they come out clean. The bores look bright when I'm done. Is this typical for Mosin Nagants and a result of the metal used for the barrel or is there something else going on here? I use No.9 and phosphor-bronze brushes. Any suggestions or thoughts would be most appreciated!

Thanks!
John

1943 Izhevsk 91/30
1945 Izhevsk M44

[Lotema]

Most of mine, I can keep cleaning till the cows come home and there will always continue to be dirty patches.

[bunkysdad]

It's like that on all my milsurps. I just figured it was some chemical reaction between the barrel steel, cleaning solvent, and bronze brush that causes a patch to come out almost dk green or something. So I get is as good as I can, oil it and not worry. I don't want to scrub it to death trying to remove any copper jacket stuff thereby causing more wear than good.

[tjtM38]

There is a case to be made that many good rifles have been ruined with agressive cleaning techniques and powerful solvents that are not needed. As long as you take action to remove the corrosive salts left by the primers as well as powder residue and protect with rust preventive oil, you shouldn't be concerned about the patches coming out grey or somewhat dirty. I knew a guy that ruined a .270 bolt action leaving Sweets 7.62 in the barrel too long. It eroded the throat and the rifling of a barrel that had been shot little.

[jm190]

Thanks for the quick replies! I cleaned both rifles well when I bought them and have shot nothing but commercial Sellier&Bellot and Prvi Partizan ammunition through them plus a few of my hand loads. I will continue to clean them with Hoppe's and phosphor-bronze brushes and nothing else.

Thanks again!
John

[desdem12]

They will cleanup sooner or later, or they may stay dark. As long as you get the salts out then don't worry if they shoot and operate good.

[zeebill]

I kind of think you are bordering on the old I eat here so it has to be that clean in the bore syndrome. Even the cleanest bores you can find will color a clean patch after you are done with cleaning them. It is just the metal itself coloring the patches. If the rifling is clean and the corossive nature of the ammo is nuetralized you are done and anything after that is a waste of time. Enjoy the shooting and don't make a major event out of the cleaning! Bill

[Junk Yard Dog]

Dirty commie powders, the Hungarian powders were the worst, one shot and the rifle was black. If you have any pitting in the bore ( dark bore) the pits hold fouling and make the rifle harder to clean. Green is the result of the hoppes or other copper solvent eating away the copper fouling in the bore and eating your bore brush turning green in the process.

[tjtM38]

About once in every four cleanings I will use the brush, but I don't use it every time. Hoppes #9 is a good solvent that won't eat up your bore and will take some of the copper and/or jacket fouling out. However, if you shoot corrosive ammo, you will have to add another step of cleaning with a water based cleaner to remove the salts left by corrosive priming. If all you are shooting is PPU or other commercial non-corrosive ammo, your present cleaning should be sufficient.

[Ironnewt]

When we think of a rifle barrel, we think of perfectly smooth lands and grooves. If you look at one, it will appear to the naked eye to be just that. I'm not sure how Mosin nagant barrels had their rifling cut but I would imagine it was with a cutting "broach" The "broaches" are long cutting tools that have the numbers of groves and they twist the required amout per inch (BTW what is the twist rate on a M/N?) they are also a progressive tool with gaps in the cutting sections to allow the chips and cutting liquid/oil to flow out. The first broach cuts a bit, the second some more and so on. Some broaches are tapered as to start and cut larger grooves as they progress and as a result only one broach is used. These cut faster and are as a result, the cuts are not as smooth. The point I am trying to make is the lands and grooves are smooth looking but actually rather rough. Under a microscope thet will appear to be a rough as a piece of 20 grit. sandpaper.

Now that we have digested all that nonsense, lets go back to our "Clean" barrel. We fire a round and the copper jacket, the powder that burns, the powder that doesn't burn and any primer residue (remember the corrosive salts?) all get pressed at extremely high pressure aginst our "Smooth" lands and grooves. No wonder after one shot your barrel is dirty.

[musketjon]

All of my milsurps get their initial cleaning with the Outer's Foul Out. It gets out all the old copper that regular cleaning leaves behind and will remove the dirt and gunk (and rust, too) that is trapped underneath the old layers of copper fouling. It's amazing what will come out of a supposedly clean bore with an electronic cleaning tool.
Jon

[EJTHor]

Depends on the gun and ammo. My Mosins (aside from my Finn's) are always filthy, no matter how much I clean. My K31? I could fire 100 rounds of surplus through it and you'd be hard pressed to tell it had been fired since the last cleaning.

[Joeinthehills]

When we think of a rifle barrel, we think of perfectly smooth lands and grooves. If you look at one, it will appear to the naked eye to be just that. I'm not sure how Mosin nagant barrels had their rifling cut but I would imagine it was with a cutting "broach" The "broaches" are long cutting tools that have the numbers of groves and they twist the required amout per inch (BTW what is the twist rate on a M/N?) they are also a progressive tool with gaps in the cutting sections to allow the chips and cutting liquid/oil to flow out. The first broach cuts a bit, the second some more and so on. Some broaches are tapered as to start and cut larger grooves as they progress and as a result only one broach is used. These cut faster and are as a result, the cuts are not as smooth. The point I am trying to make is the lands and grooves are smooth looking but actually rather rough. Under a microscope thet will appear to be a rough as a piece of 20 grit. sandpaper.

Now that we have digested all that nonsense, lets go back to our "Clean" barrel. We fire a round and the copper jacket, the powder that burns, the powder that doesn't burn and any primer residue (remember the corrosive salts?) all get pressed at extremely high pressure aginst our "Smooth" lands and grooves. No wonder after one shot your barrel is dirty.

Excellent primer on manufacturing techniques, which were far from the present ISO standards for mfg'rg todays standards at FN's Columbia, SC site w/ the CNC technology that exist today.

Even yesterday's cleaners like Ed's Red (Frankford Arsenal formula) works as well as today as it did 50 years ago, just follow the directions

It's like John M. Browning's design of the Model 1911 worked then, and is still working, and is being copied by how many today .