French 1916 Berthier Carbine

[shoto2758]

My first French Rifle..This one i kind of just came across and said why not..I thought it was a good price.I dont know much about them,but have been reading up.I think this is called a Musketoon Model 1916 configuration by the addition of a handguard and medal extension to the magazine to allow five shots .If anyone knows more about the markings,please enlighten me.

[desdem12]

Pretty nice. MLE M16. Should have the year and maker marks under the handguard. The bolt is a snap to take down. The magazine is a funky thing but comes out fairly easy. You can use a 3 shot or 5 shot clip on these. I don't have any yet. Nice small handy carbines. Mine passed headspace and I intend to shoot it sometime.

[desdem12]

Also I am looking at it and I see all matching numbers? This would be an excellent find. Almost none are matching.

[shoto2758]

Here's the maker and year.

[websterz]

Why do folks always flip the rear sight up in the air for pics? Plan on shooting at something 3 miles away?

[desdem12]

Hmm. I have never seen one that late. The maker is MAC. I will have to look but it could be a last year of the model. Also it is balle n marked. (opened up like the D mark for finland)

[desdem12]

Manufacture d'armes de Châtellerault, often abbreviated to MAC.

[desdem12]

http://www.virdea.net/french/berthier.html

[redspoon]

I dont know much about them

That makes two of us, but I do know that is one sweet looking carbine
Des that's some good detective work, as usual

[Junk Yard Dog]

Very nice Mle16, I load for, and shoot mine regularly, very handly little rifles. A matching bolt is a rare thing to see on these, probably due to it's very late build date. During WW1 the French cannibalized any rifles they could in order to make rifles that would shoot, this led to massive mixed parts on and wartime French rifle. These carbines were still in French service with police well into the 1970's.

[etprescottazusa91]

That is a beautiful little carbine you have there, that's a model I was not really familiar with, now I want to add one sometime. Thanks for posting.

[Junk Yard Dog]

They turn up on GB with surprising regularity. This is another late bloomer in the milsurp world. Once available very cheaply as surplus, but it never caught on with the American shooter, and only has attracted attention from the mainstream milsurp collector in recent decades. There was a time when I was handed one of these by someone who just wanted to be rid of it and had found nobody willing to pay anything. That happened twice in fact, the third one I had to pay $20 for.

[TulaTom]

Very nice! As others have said, you don't see them with matching serial numbers very often. It looks like your stacking arm is missing unfortunately. You might keep an eye open for one at gun shops/shows.

[desdem12]

Some of these models did not have the stacking rod. It depends on exactly which one it is. If I remember right the mle m16 does not have one. Not sure about the m92 or m90. One of them does have it I believe.

[Junk Yard Dog]

My Mle16 has the stacking rod, but I believe it falls out, or comes off that one sometimes. Mine is much older than yours so it likely would have had it, by 1935 nobody was worried about stacking rifles.

[gurn]

Nice looking Mle16 you have there. Here are a few pics of mine. Do they all have the anchor on the butt plate?

[desdem12]

Nice rifle and nice bore on that one. Mine has a great bore also. Another matching rifle too

[desdem12]

Do you shoot that one?

[gurn]

Funny but I never have and I have ammo for it. I will take it to the range soon now that I have it dug out.

[Virdea]

Hmm. I have never seen one that late. The maker is MAC. I will have to look but it could be a last year of the model. Also it is balle n marked. (opened up like the D mark for finland)

MAC produced these weapons until 1938 - there simply was no other good, small weapon available that matched it until then, and after WW1 there was a great deal of interest in them from commando units with no desire to carry fishing poles with them into the front line. The main era of mix and matching weapons was WW1, and as this weapon is safely removed in time and space from this event it is not completely out of line for it to match. The main reason weapons got mixed and matched was the high death rate of both front and rear area soldiers and the destructive power of artillery - thousands of weapons were policed on the front line every week and sent to be refurbished where their parts were thrown into bins, and armorers grabbed any part that came to hand.

These weapons were still in soldier's hands in the 1950s - usually in second-line colonial service, but were rapidly removed from use with the retreat from the colonies and the draw down of the French military. The carbine version went to the Gendarmes where it stayed in armories for a surprisingly long time - there are Gendarmes on the French boards who remember them getting handed out in the 1970s. Their use at that time was not as rifles really, but as riot control clubs that could have a bayonet stuck on front. I am not aware of Gendarmes learning to shoot them past the 1960s, but like any other statement of fact someday I am sure a Gendarme veteran will correct me if I am wrong.

The cost of these weapons on Gunbroker has risen from an average of $75 just five years ago to some going for $500. With the quantity on the market, I am not sure I would pay anything near that. My most expensive was a Mle 1892 with an 1893 serial and the missing rear base tang for $125. I have rebuilt and sold or given away around 10 right now - they used to be fun to rebuild since the parts were easy to find, but those parts are mostly gone. I am refurbishing a group of 6 right now as blank firing movie props for a science fiction piece - all sadly abused bubba spotters, but since my source of new stocks in the US dried up last year I doubt there will be any more rebuilt by anyone, so probably the rising price will one day be justified.