What is the verdict on Classic's M38's

[WeldonHunter]

I just found this. http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c= ... .2&idno=27

It looks like the rifles in the list are exempt and it includes Mosin Nagants.

§ 447.52 Import restrictions applicable to certain countries.
(a) It is the policy of the United States to deny licenses and other approvals with respect to defense articles and defense services originating in certain countries or areas. This policy applies to Afghanistan, Belarus (one of the states composing the former Soviet Union), Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Mongolia, North Korea, Sudan, Syria, and Vietnam. This policy applies to countries or areas with respect to which the United States maintains an arms embargo (e.g., Burma, China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Haiti, Liberia, Rwanda, Somalia, Sudan, and UNITA (Angola)). It also applies when an import would not be in furtherance of world peace and the security and foreign policy of the United States.

Note: Changes in foreign policy may result in additions to and deletions from the above list of countries. The ATF will publish changes to this list in the Federal Register. Contact the Firearms and Explosives Imports Branch at (304) 616-4550 for current information.

(b) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section, the appropriate ATF officer shall deny applications to import into the United States the following firearms and ammunition:

(1) Any firearm located or manufactured in Georgia, Kazakstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Russian Federation, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, or Uzbekistan, and any firearm previously manufactured in the Soviet Union, that is not one of the models listed below:

(i) Pistols/Revolvers:

(A) German Model P08 Pistol.

(B) IZH 34M, .22 caliber Target Pistol.

(C) IZH 35M, .22 caliber Target Pistol.

(D) Mauser Model 1896 Pistol.

(E) MC-57-1 Pistol.

(F) MC-1-5 Pistol.

(G) Polish Vis Model 35 Pistol.

(H) Soviet Nagant Revolver.

(I) TOZ 35, .22 caliber Target Pistol.

(ii) Rifles:

(A) BARS-4 Bolt Action Carbine.

(B) Biathlon Target Rifle, .22LR caliber.

(C) British Enfield Rifle.

(D) CM2, .22 caliber Target Rifle (also known as SM2, 22 caliber).

(E) German Model 98K Rifle.

(F) German Model G41 Rifle.

(G) German Model G43 Rifle.

(H) IZH-94.

(I) LOS-7 Bolt Action Rifle.

(J) MC-7-07.

(K) MC-18-3.

(L) MC-19-07.

(M) MC-105-01.

(N) MC-112-02.

(O) MC-113-02.

(P) MC-115-1.

(Q) MC-125/127.

(R) MC-126.

(S) MC-128.

(T) Saiga Rifle.

(U) Soviet Model 38 Carbine.

(V) Soviet Model 44 Carbine.

(W) Soviet Model 91/30 Rifle.

(X) TOZ 18, .22 caliber Bolt Action Rifle.

(Y) TOZ 55.

(Z) TOZ 78.

(AA) Ural Target Rifle, .22LR caliber.

(BB) VEPR Rifle.

(CC) Winchester Model 1895, Russian Model Rifle;

(2) Ammunition located or manufactured in Georgia, Kazakstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Russian Federation, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, or Uzbekistan, and ammunition previously manufactured in the Soviet Union, that is 7.62×25mm caliber (also known as 7.63×25mm caliber or .30 Mauser); or

(3) A type of firearm the manufacture of which began after February 9, 1996.

(c) The provisions of paragraph (b) of this section shall not affect the fulfillment of contracts with respect to firearms or ammunition entered or withdrawn from warehouse for consumption in the United States on or before February 9, 1996.

(d) A defense article authorized for importation under this part may not be shipped on a vessel, aircraft or other means or conveyance which is owned or operated by, or leased to or from, any of the countries or areas covered by paragraph (a) of this section.

(e) Applications for permits to import articles that were manufactured in, or have been in, a country or area proscribed under this section may be approved where the articles are covered by Category I(a) of the Import List (other than those subject to the provisions of 27 CFR Part 479), are importable as curios or relics under the provisions of 27 CFR 478.118, and meet the following criteria:

(1) The articles were manufactured in a proscribed country or area prior to the date, as established by the Department of State, the country or area became proscribed, or, were manufactured in a non-proscribed country or area; and

(2) The articles have been stored for the five year period immediately prior to importation in a non-proscribed country or area.

(f) Applicants desiring to import articles claimed to meet the criteria specified in paragraph (e) of this section shall explain, and certify to, how the firearms meet the criteria. The certification statement will be prepared in letter form, executed under the penalties of perjury, and should be submitted with the application for an import permit. The certification statement must be accompanied by documentary information on the country or area of original manufacture and on the country or area of storage for the five year period immediately prior to importation. Such information may, for example, include a verifiable statement in the English language of a government official or any other person having knowledge of the date and place of manufacture and/or the place of storage; a warehouse receipt or other document which provides the required history of storage; and any other document that the applicant believes substantiates the place and date of manufacture and the place of storage. The appropriate ATF officer, however, reserves the right to determine whether documentation is acceptable. Applicants shall, when required by the appropriate ATF officer, furnish additional documentation as may be necessary to determine whether an import permit application should be approved.

[T.D. ATF-202, 50 FR 14382, Apr. 12, 1985, as amended by T.D. ATF-215, 50 FR 42162, Oct. 18, 1985; T.D. ATF-287, 54 FR 13681, Apr. 5, 1989; T.D. ATF-323, 57 FR 24189, June 8, 1992; T.D. ATF-349, 58 FR 47831, Sept. 13, 1993; T.D. ATF-367, 60 FR 47866, Sept. 15, 1995; T.D. ATF-396, 62 FR 61234, Nov. 17, 1997; T.D. ATF-484, 67 FR 64526, Oct. 21, 2002; T.D. ATF-9F, 72 FR 72938, Dec. 26, 2007]

[bocephus]

Yeah that's all I can find and it specifically allows the import of Russian Mosins. It also states that rifles not on that list, previously manufactured in Russia could not be imported. So if mosins were banned it wouldn't matter which country had the stockpile you still can't import them.

It looks like that bans the SVT, SKS, PPSH, AK, etc...

[Junk Yard Dog]

Looks like it was last updated 26 Dec 2007, it's possible they added or subtracted from the list over time on a case by case basis, at one time the SVT was importable, or there wouldn't be one in my collection, odd that if Mosins now can be imported that we haven't seen any from Russia until now. I well remember all the bitching when this ruling first came down about how much good stuff we were being cut off from, I wonder if there was resistance from the other way as well? Russia does have some strict rules about what " cultural heritage" items can be removed from the country. In the early 90's there was a flood of medals and such like the ones I have posted in the OT coming out of Russia itself, but they slammed the door on that right around the same time Clinton added his own ban.

Wait a minute , this is an ATF document, it's date of inception is T.D. ATF-202, 50 FR 14382, Apr. 12, 1985, this is too old. It wasn't the ATF that cut off arms from China or Russia, it was done by executive order from the president.. This document seems to be a list of what is legally importable from Russia, and some other countries after the changes to GCA-68 made during the Reagan administration that opened the floodgates to milsurps coming into the country again. You can see they have been amending it many times "Changes in foreign policy may result in additions to and deletions from the above list of countries" Under the importation rules Mosins are importable, but not if an executive order blocks the import licences.

[Junk Yard Dog]

As far as I can find the above list is part of the US/Russian Federation trade treaty of 1996, it has been amended over time but I can't find what the additions or subtractions might have been or when they were made exactly. Clinton's executive orders date from at least 1994 during his first term when the Clinton white house went all out against gun owners. 1996 is also around the time when the Russians suddenly got some pride back and started cutting off various historical items from leaving the country, it's possible that they considered Mosins to be such items and have since changed policy. There has to be some reason why we haven't seen Mosins from Russia until now and I don't think it's because the Ukrainians sold them cheaper. You have to be a lawyer to read some of these treaty documents, now I have a headache.

[WeldonHunter]

As far as I can find the above list is part of the US/Russian Federation trade treaty of 1996, it has been amended over time but I can't find what the additions or subtractions might have been or when they were made exactly. Clinton's executive orders date from at least 1994 during his first term when the Clinton white house went all out against gun owners. 1996 is also around the time when the Russians suddenly got some pride back and started cutting off various historical items from leaving the country, it's possible that they considered Mosins to be such items and have since changed policy. There has to be some reason why we haven't seen Mosins from Russia until now and I don't think it's because the Ukrainians sold them cheaper. You have to be a lawyer to read some of these treaty documents, now I have a headache.

Yeah I hear you Jim, it made my head spin which isn't hard these days. That's why I posted it. Maybe someone here can make heads or tails out of it. I did find a referrence to this, VRA=Voluntary Restraint of Trade and it was said that in the early 90s it was an agreement between Russia and the US to not import certain rifles and other items. I'm researching it further but saw it was an agreement that's not legally binding but was done with an exchange of monies or gold with Russia. I haven't verified this yet though.

[TrainWreck]

Let me through another onion into the stew. I took apart my 1944 M38 (Classic) to see what I could see. The only import stamps are one under the barrel just behind the front sight (IO Inc. Monroe NC.) and the Molot stamp on the receiver. All parts show no wear other than some "handling" marks except for the dings on the stock close to the butt plate. One thing I saw that I thought a little curious is both of the end caps, one on the stock and one on the top fore piece, are painted black but the edges that parallel the barrell are very shiny with very rough sharp edges. It's like the metal was cut last week. I have close to two dozen MN's and none of them have end caps like this. They are all dull colored, not sharp, and all painted over. I wonder...................

Took pictures; not good ones though. The more I look at the edges, the more I think I may be mistaken but the steel is awfully bright for being 69 years old. Why is there no rust?

[WeldonHunter]

I just looked at one of the M44s I got last year that is NOT a Molot import and the handguard end caps look the same. I suspect the shellac kept the air from the cuts and that's why it's not rusty. The eschutcheons are the same way. They look like brass but it's a cross between the color of the shellac and bare shiney metal that gives them that appearance. I've had some shellac flake off of one and it's clean bare metal. I thought they were brass for the longest time, lol. That was until we were discussing it in the thread and someone pointed it out.

[ZRanger]

From a company who says they have nothing left to sell they sure are slow! Ordered mine on the 21st of Feb they charged my CC on the 22nd. I sent an email yesterday and today being the 5th I received an email stating "we hope to get it out this week"what's up with that! What do they have one person shipping. How long dose it take to put a shipping liable on a box!

[Junk Yard Dog]

From a company who says they have nothing left to sell they sure are slow! Ordered mine on the 21st of Feb they charged my CC on the 22nd. I sent an email yesterday and today being the 5th I received an email stating "we hope to get it out this week"what's up with that! What do they have one person shipping. How long dose it take to put a shipping liable on a box!

Welcome to the board, most of these online company's are shoestring operations, operating out of a warehouse, or even a barn, low numbers of staff. During normal times this is not a problem, more than enough to get the job done, these are not normal times. They are out of material because it was all bought up, a year or more worth of orders in a few days, the shipping situation must be insane, I have enough to do just dealing with one box to ship, or two at most, hundreds at a time I do not care to contemplate. They get nothing from holding up your order on purpose, if it's delayed all you have to do is look at what has been going on in the gun industry to understand why.

[ZRanger]

Thanks for the welcome and yes I hear what your saying. But it has been almost 2weeks and still as of today no shipping! I expected better then that. I think I would have been less inclined to complain if my card was not charged well before shipping. But it's not as if my life depends on it so I wait. Who knowns maybe it will be worth it.

[husker51]

Sales companies used to add a little "disclaimer" if you will, "Please allow 6 to 8 weeks for delivery". Then it would arrive 2 weeks later, but if there was any delay it would still arrive at least within 8 weeks. So one would be none the wiser about the delay issue.

[psmd]

To me the key would be looking at the barrels, on the Ukraine refurbs the barrels had some of the pitting ground away before they were reblued, especially in areas under the handguards. Now if the Molots do not have any evidence of this, then we have a problem.

[TrainWreck]

To me the key would be looking at the barrels, on the Ukraine refurbs the barrels had some of the pitting ground away before they were reblued, especially in areas under the handguards. Now if the Molots do not have any evidence of this, then we have a problem.

For what it's worth my two Molot M38's have what looks like "good as new" barrels so no pitting there, but, I have a 1943 Tula PU sniper (Molot) that I found pitting under the barrel when I took it apart to clean it. No evidence of any attempt to fix it or even clean the gun. There was rust everywhere on that gun. The lenses on the scope were covered with dirty dried water spots. It looked like the gun had been left outside in the rain then stuffed into the crate.