Classic has M38s

[redeuce]

Wow, evidently their import mark has expanded. Mine was purchased a while back.

[tjtM38]

Wow, evidently their import mark has expanded. Mine was purchased a while back.

This one I bought from a local pawn shop more than a year ago. It was previously owned, and I got it for a 100 dollar bill, but the import mark is unsightly.

[Deputy]

I don't even want to be reminded about the R-Guns import stamp on one of my 1895 Nagants. It was like they said "let's see if we can make this otherwise well-preserved revolver from many decades ago look like a complete piece of crap". And their stamp accomplished that.

The posts above confirm what I stated in my post about import stamps. Mosins seem to be the ONLY gun in which owners can overlook the import stamp. I suspect because the number of unstamped guns is so few. I can sorta understand that. But no matter what, it remains an anomaly of the gun and it's owners.

I think another reason you will find more "Bubbas" among Mosin owners is the actual price of the gun. I paid $99 for one of my 91/30s from Classsic. I can't think of ANY other firearm, except for the 1895 Nagant, that can be had for that cheap. So butchering one or modding the heck out of it doesn't really hurt your pocketbook like it would if you did it on an M1 Garand or Luger. It's just a simple fact that some folks don't think about Mosins as being "historical artifacts". To them they are just a cheap, beater rifle that they can toss in the trunk of a car or bed of a pickup and let bounce around without taking a financial loss on them. I am one of the guys described as a "stock burner". I don't buy ANY of the guns I own to just store them in a safe for grandkids (I don't have any) or posterity or as some kind of investment to make money on. Call me selfish, but I buy my guns to SHOOT them. I "collect" in that I like to aquire different variations of these rifles to shoot them. I need one more M39 to have all the different makers of the Fin version of the Mosin. And when I get that I will shoot it too.
Mr Mosin and Mr. Nagant didn't design these guns to be stored in a hermetically-sealed safe. They designed them to SHOOT. If it wasn't for my dang arhtritis and a flu bug I can't seem to shake, I would be out there every weekend burning up the rifling in them. I don't knock collectors who don't shoot. It's just not my idea of "collecting". If I had possession of the rarest of the rare Mosins, I would be chomping at the bit to get to the range and try it out.

[psmd]

I have had three refurbs in cases where the importer just missed the stamp, sold one on GB and tried to sell another on another site, and I can tell you they brought zero premium over an import marked one.

[Deputy]

I have had three refurbs in cases where the importer just missed the stamp, sold one on GB and tried to sell another on another site, and I can tell you they brought zero premium over an import marked one.

Again...no surprise. Mosins aren't affected by the import stamp as much as other guns. You can see that by the posts in this thread. It remains an anomaly.

[Darryl]

I think we all evolve in collecting and these will have their place. I still can't keep up with you big pocket guys but I was lucky enough to find a few diamonds before things got rough. They are good for trade if not for shooting anyway. I never was much of a carbine guy anyway. There are no refurbed m91s dag nab it or I would be all over those, like 123.45 all over them.

IMHO the Mosin collector has "evolved" much faster than other types of firearm collectors. The prime example being the fact that Mosin collectors are willing to completely ignore the import stamps that are present on the rifles. Collect any other firearm...Garands, M1 Carbines, 98K Mausers, Lugers or P-38s, and an import mark, no matter how tiny, KILLS the value and collectibility of that firearm. I have a minty Mauser-made P-38 with all matching numbers and all the original finish on the gun. It looks magnificent. Like it just came off the assebly line. Must have been carried by Heinz Guderian only on sunny days while doing tank inspections. But it has a tiny import mark at the base of the grip by the mag well opening, and that mark allowed me to buy it at 1/2 it's non-stamped value. Import stamps seem to be meaningless to Mosin collectors. Perhaps because there are so few of them without the stamp. But it is an attitude that seems to be distinct to Mosin owners. Nowhere else are import stamps so easily ignored. Quite honestly, anyone who collects other firearms and sees this multi-page debate over guns that have import stamps is probably just shaking their heads and smiling.

Maybe more of a perspective.

It is not true that we ignore the import mark. We accept it as there is really no choice. Also remember, the Russian rifles came in much later then the others did. Almost all of them have import marks, so we really have little choice.

And one more though. As a collector, I don't ignore the fact that a Mosin has an import mark. I accept it for what it is, but I put a higher value on one that doesn't have on (all things being equal).

So we really don't ignore the import mark, we just have to deal with it.

Dolk

[Rongo]

The prime example being the fact that Mosin collectors are willing to completely ignore the import stamps that are present on the rifles. Collect any other firearm...Garands, M1 Carbines, 98K Mausers, Lugers or P-38s, and an import mark, no matter how tiny, KILLS the value and collectibility of that firearm. I have a minty Mauser-made P-38 with all matching numbers and all the original finish on the gun. It looks magnificent. Like it just came off the assebly line. Must have been carried by Heinz Guderian only on sunny days while doing tank inspections. But it has a tiny import mark at the base of the grip by the mag well opening, and that mark allowed me to buy it at 1/2 it's non-stamped value. Import stamps seem to be meaningless to Mosin collectors. Perhaps because there are so few of them without the stamp. But it is an attitude that seems to be distinct to Mosin owners. Nowhere else are import stamps so easily ignored. Quite honestly, anyone who collects other firearms and sees this multi-page debate over guns that have import stamps is probably just shaking their heads and smiling.

You just answered your own question.

[Deputy]

You just answered your own question.

Yes but....there ARE examples WITHOUT the import mark. They are fewer for sure. But they do exist. I am just pointing out that the Mosin collectors as a whole tend to ignore the import stamp and don't believe it detracts from the value of the gun, while other gun collectors avoid it like the plague. Again...just an anomaly within the Mosin. BTW...I LOVE the word ANOMALY!!!
And if I had my choice, i would have NO import stamps on any of my guns.

[TrainWreck]

There is no gray area in this argument. There is no compromise. There are only 2 possibilities- There is one group of Mosin enthusiasts that believe out of nowhere, a whole cache of previously unknown, impeccably refurbished M44's, M38's, Snipers, and who knows what else was sitting in surplus storage, unable to move because of import laws. Along came Molot, a subsidiary of Izmash, who struck a deal. They then uncrated all these rifles, wiped them off with a rag, stamped them, boxed them, and sent them out for retail sale. The other group, which I am a member, believes the Russians were trying to figure a way to capitalize on surplus fever, had a cache of good rifles, bad rifles, and a shitload of arsenal parts. They shipped them to Molot, who "refurbished or refinished" these rifles.This served 2 purposes- provided a way to make money from a bunch of useless firearms, and a way to employ people. Everyone must decide which side of the fence they are on.

The red flags that I see are simple-1) Molot has been around since the 40's, yet no one knows anything about them or what they are doing.2) Almost every shipment of milsurp weapons in the past had an origin, a chain of possession, or at least a pretty good idea where the weapons came from. The Molots are a mystery. 3) Someone knows the story on these rifles, either refurbisher, importer, dealer, etc. yet no one, when asked, will give an answer. Evidently Molot has been contacted, to no avail. It was posted on another board that Classic was called and quized- the answer was " All we know is what is posted on the internet" 4) The price- The genuine snipers were selling for $800. All of a sudden, there are genuine authentic snipers for $599. Going rate for M44's and M38s is $250- $275. All of a sudden M44's are $199 and M38's are $219, or whatever. Hello, the dealers decided everyone is so nice that they will slash the prices to be fair.

Add it up, and something stinks. I think the reason they are cheap is the importer and dealers know there is a problem, and they figure at that price no one will complain. It is also apparent that the biggest support for Molot are the guys that bought the $599 specials, and a forum who's 2 main sponsors are AIM and Classic.
I was basically attacked on a board about my stupidity because I had the gall to even question Molot.

Maybe the situation will become clear, but with no cooperation from importer, dealer, or Molot, I doubt it. To me, that means there will always be a question about these.

How do you feel about the ATI PU snipers that suddenly appeared a little over a year ago selling for $549 and judged to be authentic

[desdem12]

There is all kinds of info about these on the sniper page.

[TrainWreck]

There is all kinds of info about these on the sniper page.

I know that. I wanted to know what "redeuce" thought about the quality and authenticity of these ATI $549 snipers compared to the $800 R-gun snipers since he seemed to be sniping at the lower priced items.

[Darryl]

There is all kinds of info about these on the sniper page.

I know that. I wanted to know what "redeuce" thought about the quality and authenticity of these ATI $549 snipers compared to the $800 R-gun snipers since he seemed to be sniping at the lower priced items.

Judged by who to be authentic?

This thread is about the M38's that Classic just sold out on. (may have more or not). Please stay on that topic for now. If you want to know about snipers and authenticity, then go to the sniper forum and ask. Or better yet, do a search and read. There is plenty of info on them.

But this thread is going to stay on topic.....for now.

Dolk

[Darryl]

You just answered your own question.

Yes but....there ARE examples WITHOUT the import mark. They are fewer for sure. But they do exist. I am just pointing out that the Mosin collectors as a whole tend to ignore the import stamp and don't believe it detracts from the value of the gun, while other gun collectors avoid it like the plague. Again...just an anomaly within the Mosin. BTW...I LOVE the word ANOMALY!!!
And if I had my choice, i would have NO import stamps on any of my guns.

True collectors don't ignore anything and any collector will tell you that. The lack of an import number is very important and has all sorts of clues with it. (or the lack of one). And I just said, I would pay more for a Mosin without a import mark....and I consider myself a collector.

It does detract from the value of the "rifle" (a "gun" is something else...ask JYD ). I would never buy one with the huge RGUNS import mark that they used for a short time. I'm not saying they are crap or anything, but if I have a choice I wouldn't. I probably would not buy one that has Molot on it (and yes I know Molot is not the importer ), not until I know more. So the import mark is very important.

If you are a collector of refurbished rifles (and nothing wrong with that) then maybe it is less important, or if you a a small collector or have limited fund, then maybe. But to say the Mosin collector "ignores the import stamp and don't believe it detracts from the value of the gun" is incorrect. Everything matter on that rifle.

Now, I will only talk for myself, but I'd bet the other "collectors" on this board will believe close to that.

Now for the "import mark" on these Molots M38's........Anyone know who is importing them yet?

Dolk

[psmd]

Remember that even the Canadians get all of their Mosins without import stamps, exept the Molots which are stamped in Russia.

[Rongo]

Remember that even the Canadians get all of their Mosins without import stamps, exept the Molots which are stamped in Russia.

Because for us an import mark is required & is a reality for us. Sure Deputy, it would be great to collect non-import stamped Mosin Nagant's. I even have a few... But they are hard to come by & those are the facts. Let the horse be already.

[rideandslidejim]

I bought my M44 from Wildners a good bit before all this Molot shit hit the fan, and i have no memory of Wildner's saying anything about being anything other than excellent ++ condition. Well, i looked closer tonight ( since i still have not broke her down for a though cleaning ) and here it is !!!! It is in front of the rear sight. I'm still happy with it but !!!!

I also checked my new 91/30 from Buds, also in excellent cond. ( the best i have ever gotten ) and NO Molot markings !!!!

So--- At least Classic said it was Molot, should Wildners said that also ?????


Jim

[MarksmanTim]

The recent batch of M44's were sold through multiple distributors. I bought one from AIM and it has the Molot marking just like yours underneath the hand guard. It also has small stamps of their "diamond" marking on the receiver and bolt. Look close!

[JayPoc]

I bought my M44 from Wildners a good bit before all this Molot shit hit the fan, and i have no memory of Wildner's saying anything about being anything other than excellent ++ condition. Well, i looked closer tonight ( since i still have not broke her down for a though cleaning ) and here it is !!!! It is in front of the rear sight. I'm still happy with it but !!!!

I also checked my new 91/30 from Buds, also in excellent cond. ( the best i have ever gotten ) and NO Molot markings !!!!

So--- At least Classic said it was Molot, should Wildners said that also ?????


Jim

Aw, dang. Sorry Jim, its worthless. You drive it up here to Virginia and I'll melt it down to make shovel blades. 'Cause I feel for your plight, I won't even charge ya...

[rideandslidejim]

Storming to hard to leave tonight, but i will load up the truck in the morning, full of shovels, leaving the 44 here !!! I said 44 because i don't know what to call it now "M44" Mosin M44, Molot M44 ?????? Just have to stay with "Little Mo " Big Mo's illegitimate brother !!

Jim

[Deputy]

Remember that even the Canadians get all of their Mosins without import stamps, exept the Molots which are stamped in Russia.

Because for us an import mark is required & is a reality for us. Sure Deputy, it would be great to collect non-import stamped Mosin Nagant's. I even have a few... But they are hard to come by & those are the facts. Let the horse be already.

WHAT????? You mean I can't use the word anomaly any more. Phooey!

Wait...maybe JYD is an anomaly?