Classic has M38s

[JayPoc]

As for the part about Molot not disclosing information, leaving a "cloud" over them, I can understand why. They are utilizing some loop hole in a law somewhere to make it legal for them to import these and make lots of money. Why would they expose the loop hole, themselves for exploiting it, or otherwise draw unwanted international attention to themselves just to satisfy the purists when there are plenty of other people out there willing to buy them, regardless of the story?

They have nothing to gain, which is why unless someone can get on the inside (probably literally) to see what they are doing, we will likely never know.

Until further information (facts) come out, I cannot say without doubt that these Molot long guns have been recently refinished/redone/refurbished. So, how does the saying go? If it looks like a Milsurp, smells like a Milsurp, shoots like a Milsurp, then it IS a Milsurp?

The debate continues...

That is their (Molot) choice. They can continue to not give any responses at all. As long as they do, then we have the right to not trust them and not allow them on here. We are not telling you or anyone you can not buy them. That is your choice and your conscience. But we can keep them off here if that is what Molot is happy with.

We don't pretend to think we can force Molot to do anything just for us "purists". We don't care if they don't. That is their choice, but they don't tell us what to do here either. And I won't promote a rifle that I have doubts about.

"If it stinks it can't be a rose".

The debate will always continue........

Ummmmm...a clarification please. Are you NOW saying that if we buy, say, an M44, and it has a Molot stamp on it, we can't post pics or talk about it? Because there are a few of us waiting on delivery of our M44 carbines from Wideners and we have been looking forward with great anticipation to comparing what we get. Reference this thread:

http://www.russian-mosin-nagant-forum.c ... =5&t=10837

I had NO idea these were Molot-stamped guns. So now I get boned and can't talk about or post pics about it?
And what about other guys that have already purchased a Mosin that is Molot-stamped? Are they on the "outs" now too?

No....he's not saying that....he's saying the jury is still out as far as official policy for this particular forum. IMO, this at this point is a lot to do about nuthin. Like I said, I think its a great idea for all of you that have these molot m44s to post up as many quality pics as you can. I suspect they'll show exactly what I've supposed....that these are legit arsenal refurbed carbines that are escaping russia through a new channel.

[Darryl]

Let's just say this for now.

This forum (and I think I can talk for Jim the other co-owner here) will not change it views just for a batch of M38's from Molot. It won't change for thousands of them if they import that many.

We are a preservation forum. We do not believe that a military surplus rifle should be altered or refinished by anyone after it leaves the government that owned it. That will not change for Molot or anyone. That is "preservation". If the Molot rifles fall in to that policy, they will be allowed on here. If not....?

I have entered into these discussion to get input from members here. This is how we handle it. The owners will discuss it (as we have) because inevitably we will feel the heat on any changes on this forum (one way or another). We (Jim and I) will take input from the other Administrators . And we are at the point at the present time. ......then make a decision. So if you are demanding an immediate answer...forget it. We will get to it when we get to it. (lots in the oven!)

Dolk

[Izhevsk762]

Molot is not an importer, Molot is an exporter. IO is the importer.

You guys need to read gunboards more. Tuco saw the Molot PUs in storage in Russia in person before IO won the bidding:

These came from the Bryansk military storage facility

Yes & no but I know as fact this is where they came from. I tried to buy these over a year ago. I'm limited in what I can say as I am under a confidentiality agreement (not from Io as I was bidding against them). Still I can state 100% as fact that is where these came from. There are no more snipers there at least none for sale. In time more info will come out on these & maybe "other" stuff as well. But to answer your question LC, there is paperwork but not paperwork with each rifle. Still as I saw the rifles there I am pretty sure where these came from.

And Vic:

Just so you guys know- the guns were purchased from another party and Molot's only part in the action was the "commercial" sale and transfer of the rifles to circumvent a restriction of military weapons being transported across the EU. Thats why they are proofed and sold as "hunting rifles"

I think if there was a problem with these they would be all over them.

[WeldonHunter]

Molot is not an importer, Molot is an exporter. IO is the importer.

You guys need to read gunboards more. Tuco saw the Molot PUs in storage in Russia in person before IO won the bidding:

These came from the Bryansk military storage facility

Yes & no but I know as fact this is where they came from. I tried to buy these over a year ago. I'm limited in what I can say as I am under a confidentiality agreement (not from Io as I was bidding against them). Still I can state 100% as fact that is where these came from. There are no more snipers there at least none for sale. In time more info will come out on these & maybe "other" stuff as well. But to answer your question LC, there is paperwork but not paperwork with each rifle. Still as I saw the rifles there I am pretty sure where these came from.

And Vic:

Just so you guys know- the guns were purchased from another party and Molot's only part in the action was the "commercial" sale and transfer of the rifles to circumvent a restriction of military weapons being transported across the EU. Thats why they are proofed and sold as "hunting rifles"

I think if there was a problem with these they would be all over them.

Back when the Molot PUs came on the scene I quoted these same statements when we were trying to find answers with links to the discussion they were in. The problem is they are still vague and open for interpretation. They are leading statements that are not definitive. The fact that Tuco saw rifles in the Bryansk storage facility the year before doesn't mean the PUs we got are the same ones and he said that. "These came from the Bryansk military storage facility" If I remember correctly this response was to a question about if there was paperwork for those rifles."Yes & no but I know as fact this is where they came from. I tried to buy these over a year ago. I'm limited in what I can say as I am under a confidentiality agreement (not from Io as I was bidding against them). Still I can state 100% as fact that is where these came from. There are no more snipers there at least none for sale. In time more info will come out on these & maybe "other" stuff as well. But to answer your question LC, there is paperwork but not paperwork with each rifle. Still as I saw the rifles there I am pretty sure where these came from." See the last part of his statement. He says in the beginning he knows as fact these rifles were from Bryansk but in the last sentence he says "I'm pretty sure".

Vics statement was about the same. "Just so you guys know- the guns were purchased from another party and Molot's only part in the action was the "commercial" sale and transfer of the rifles to circumvent a restriction of military weapons being transported across the EU. Thats why they are proofed and sold as "hunting rifles" The question has always been from these statements and others. Who did Molot get those from and what was done to them while they had them. When pressed for direct answers they couldn't answer definitively where exactly these rifles originated and in what condition they started out in before Molot got them. There was a member there that asked in a seperate thread on gunboards where these came from. I messaged with him on gunbaords about it. Nice guy that has a nice collection of Mosin Nagants and has been a member there for a quite a few years. He even joined here and posted some of his collection. He was basically told it was already explained and the same explaination was given to him. They came from Molot by way of an unknown supplier. Tuco Saw rifles in Bryansk and tried to buy them a year before. Then rifles came up for sale and his company and IO bid on them but there's no definitive proof the rifles that came up are the one's he saw.

It sounds to me like even Vic and Tuco aren't really sure and to base the authenticity of these rifles, the PUs, on that is a huge leap of faith. I own one and would love to be able tell people they are 100% authentic and from a military facility as they were sold. I can't. I'm still keeping an open mind but I'm not basing my rifle's authenticity on what they've said so far. Part of collecting is having the rifle in front of you but part of it is it's history. Even refurbed rifles. Military refurbed rifles. A rifle that was brought back by a vet has huge historical value if it's provable. That soldier took it from the battle field. In some cases we don't know for sure because it's being sold by a surviving relative. Sometimes we make a leap of faith but that becomes, or should become, part of the rifles history. Handed down to family members and sold with the story of how it came to them. Sometimes the stories are true and sometimes they might not be but we can only base the rifles history on what we're told. That's where experience comes in to be able to decide what's most likely true and what's most likely embelished. This is why we place so much emphasis on rifles being authentic. Anybody can cobble together a bunch of parts and make claims as to what it is but it's the true, if provable, history that makes something collectable and what drives us in this.

One last thing to remember is Molot also makes firearms and is in business to sell products. I doubt authenticity is high on their priority list so even if they aren't making any of these rifles it's not hard to believe they might be getting them from someone that did.

[Darryl]

Molot is not an importer, Molot is an exporter. IO is the importer.

You guys need to read gunboards more. Tuco saw the Molot PUs in storage in Russia in person before IO won the bidding:

These came from the Bryansk military storage facility

Yes & no but I know as fact this is where they came from. I tried to buy these over a year ago. I'm limited in what I can say as I am under a confidentiality agreement (not from Io as I was bidding against them). Still I can state 100% as fact that is where these came from. There are no more snipers there at least none for sale. In time more info will come out on these & maybe "other" stuff as well. But to answer your question LC, there is paperwork but not paperwork with each rifle. Still as I saw the rifles there I am pretty sure where these came from.

And Vic:

Just so you guys know- the guns were purchased from another party and Molot's only part in the action was the "commercial" sale and transfer of the rifles to circumvent a restriction of military weapons being transported across the EU. Thats why they are proofed and sold as "hunting rifles"

I think if there was a problem with these they would be all over them.

"I think if there was a problem with these they would be all over them"
Frankly, I don't know that is true.

But,

We know they are not the importer, just a few here seem to be having a problem with that. They handled all the sniper rifles (which we are not talking about here) and then the M44's and now the M38's. Their part in everything is not known. Vic has never been to Molot's facilities. And Molot will not respond.

We are not saying one way or another, but we are asking questions. Do you think that is a bad thing to do? Or maybe you think we should just lock step behind Gunboard's which is not a "preservation" forum. They are a great forum, don't get me wrong, but they have different beliefs then we do here that is for sure. And again, nothing wrong with that. Just because Gunboards want to believe something, doesn't mean we can't ask questions over here. Questions that are unanswered. If Gunboards is fine without asking those questions then fine...Good for them.

So why does those PU snipers (that Molot had "something" to do with) all have matching serial numbers and scope numbers "freshly" stamped into them with a "modern" font? That sounds like someone "humping" those rifles. Heck, they even did it to the Tulas snipers that the Soviets never did it to. There are other questions no one seem to want to ask also. I'm not saying Molot did it, but some one did.

I was shown photos of those snipers before they were even offered for sale. A few of the photos clearly have after market bases on them. and some had post war mounts on them. I mentioned that to them, but funny thing is, none of those ever made it to market. Hummm. Well, again, we have the right to ask questions and not just accept them because others do. Just as they have the right to accept them as 100% authentic. Why would that bother Gunboards? It don't bother us.


"Just so you guys know- the guns were purchased from another party and Molot's only part in the action was the "commercial" sale and transfer of the rifles to circumvent a restriction of military weapons being transported across the EU. Thats why they are proofed and sold as "hunting rifles""

And exactly what was your source for that information?......Just asking.

Gunboards is a good board, but they clearly have different standards then we do here. They are much more "liberal" in what they can do to a Military surplus rifle. It's OK to read Gunboards if you are from here, or vice-a-versa. I do all the time. But I never go on another Board (any board) and tell them they are wrong and promote another forum. That would be inappropriate.

Dolk


.

[BuckeyeSgt]

Here is the question I pose....could we assume that a collector would choose a non Molot refurb over a Molot marked one?

I've read a little about the snipers. Would I buy a Molot sniper? Maybe. Would I buy a RGUNs sniper...definitely. I think the answer at least for myself gets even clearer when looking at the M44 or 38.

[Darryl]

Here is the question I pose....could we assume that a collector would choose a non Molot refurb over a Molot marked one?

I've read a little about the snipers. Would I buy a Molot sniper? Maybe. Would I buy a RGUNs sniper...definitely. I think the answer at least for myself gets even clearer when looking at the M44 or 38.

And that is the way it should be. Each makes up your own mind on these rifles. But some people can't live with anyone asking questions. They feel challenged if you dare to ask. In my book, you are a fool if you are a collector and are afraid to ask. It's my money and I'll ask all the questions I want to. And if someone don't like it...tough!

As far as what is allowed on this forum and where, that will be based on our "preservation" values. We will not bend on that at all. Not without a major reason to.

Dolk

[Rongo]

I don't know about the rest of you... But I need some Tylenol & a Vodka.

[Burgman50]

FYI, classic's website says the m38 is out of stock.

[Rongo]

FYI, classic's website says the m38 is out of stock.

That's about what I expected. The demand for Carbines is very high.

[Darryl]

And yet Empire arms has some really nice M38 and M44's they just put up for sale (not the first batch that some of our guys got, but a second batch). I guarantee you they are nice and very collectable and worth every penny he is selling them for (with no questions attached).

Dolk

[MarksmanTim]

I have no problem if this board decides to not let the Molot guns hang out here. I also don't really care if they are determined to be fake, as the one I have is a shooter... I just won't post about it here anymore. No big deal. --I just want to be clear on my position... non-confrontational.

I'm just trying to look at the scenario with an open mind and more than anything looking at it from a realistic point of view. The points against these being legit are good questions, and they need to be asked. At the same time someone should ask the reverse questions, which is what I was trying to do...

[mosinjunkie]

There are certain markings on a Mosin that will bring a sparkle to a collector's eye... like "Made in USSR" or "Made in URRS," for example. That will usually pique a collector's interest, and will likely motivate him to pay a bit more for such a rifle.

There are certain other markings on a Mosin that will bring a skeptical smirk to a collector's face... like "Molot" for example. That will usually kill a collector's interest, and will likely make him unwilling to pay even a highly discounted price for such a rifle.

Even if these rifles did indeed come out of crates like all the previous Ukranian refurbs, it will likely be impossible to prove, and their history and heritage is tainted. That's reason enough for me to not be interested in them.

[Junk Yard Dog]

And Vic:

Just so you guys know- the guns were purchased from another party and Molot's only part in the action was the "commercial" sale and transfer of the rifles to circumvent a restriction of military weapons being transported across the EU. Thats why they are proofed and sold as "hunting rifles"

I think if there was a problem with these they would be all over them.[/quote]
The United States Government could care less about what's transported across the EU, the prohibition against importing military surplus weapons from Russia is a US issue. Sporting rifles are legally importable from Russia, milsurp Mosins are not, and the BATFE isn't totally stupid, something would have had to be legitimately done to these milsurps before they would meet US qualifications for import as a sporting rifle. Exactly what that was we don't have all the information on yet, but Molot does call these rifle's "hunting rifles " and they do stamp their company logo on them.

[wolfstein]

i am so confused from all the postings about the M38 and M44's. I ordered an M44 from Wideners and cancelled the order. Then I ordered an M38 from Classic Arms. I'm going to stick with the "M38" whether it is real or not. I have wanted one for a while now. I am going to enjoy it regardless of whether it is real or not. When I am dead and gone it won't matter. I am 70 years old and know that I have several real rare Finns and great 91/30's to leave my son and grandsons.

[rideandslidejim]

What is the Molot Mark ???? Is it a stamped mark on the gun ????

Jim

[Longcolt44]

This is one.

[Darryl]

I have no problem if this board decides to not let the Molot guns hang out here. I also don't really care if they are determined to be fake, as the one I have is a shooter... I just won't post about it here anymore. No big deal. --I just want to be clear on my position... non-confrontational.

I'm just trying to look at the scenario with an open mind and more than anything looking at it from a realistic point of view. The points against these being legit are good questions, and they need to be asked. At the same time someone should ask the reverse questions, which is what I was trying to do...

I am not advocating we are not going to allow Molot rifles on the forums. I am simply asking the questions we need in order to make an informed decision on what we will do. So everyone needs to calm down a bit. It is OK to state your point of view. Nothing wrong with that, but you must allow me to state mine also without getting all excited that I may be after Molot or you personally, I'm not. I said to everyone earlier that I am asking "hard" questions here.

MarksmanTim,
You can ask all you want to about this here. If anyone is worried or concerned or angry that is absurd. Relax. I can assure you I'm not any of those things and am trying very hard to explain the forums policies and why we are asking these questions. That is all.

We have not made any decision on how we are going to handle this situation or even if we have too. But basically we are a collectors forum, not a shooter forum. We can accommodate both without any issues as far as we are concerned. As long as your rifle was not sawed down to make a shooter out of it by you and added a threaded compensator or something like that. But if it is an altered rifle then we have to figure out how we are going to deal with it. We have cut off Mosins that are "permanently altered" Military Surplus Rifles because it is against our policies on Preservation. It is our primary goal here.

The Molot issue probably won't be the last time we have to deal with something like this. We will figure out something that is fair based on our preservation policies. It is not the same thing as a hacked up surplus rifle. It is much more complex than that. So, we will move slowly and try to figure out where we are and how to accommodate these rifle "if" we determine there is an issue. So please don't get excited...yet!

We are trying to work this out fairly even as you read this post.

We thank you for your input (all of them).

Darryl

[bb91]

Sporting rifles are legally importable from Russia, milsurp Mosins are not, and the BATFE isn't totally stupid, something would have had to be legitimately done to these milsurps before they would meet US qualifications for import as a sporting rifle. Exactly what that was we don't have all the information on yet, but Molot does call these rifle's "hunting rifles " and they do stamp their company logo on them.

This is what I want to know, what is the change that makes them into a sporting rifle?

[Longcolt44]

Sporting rifles are legally importable from Russia, milsurp Mosins are not, and the BATFE isn't totally stupid, something would have had to be legitimately done to these milsurps before they would meet US qualifications for import as a sporting rifle. Exactly what that was we don't have all the information on yet, but Molot does call these rifle's "hunting rifles " and they do stamp their company logo on them.

This is what I want to know, what is the change that makes them into a sporting rifle?

That may be between MOLOT and the Feds and we may never know.