Classic has M38s

[WeldonHunter]

Every M44 from AIMs last batch was a molot right? I assume Wideners too, plenty of pics of those in the forum right now. Looks like any new batch of anything that comes up for the foreseeable future will be a molot.

That might be true with the carbines but the M91/30s still seem to be from somewhere else. AIM is supposed to be getting some M38s also. My guess is they too will be from Molot.

[Deputy]

Well if Wideners M44s are Molots, I will know pretty soon. A few of us have them on order from Windeners. That whole ordering process seems a bit flakey from them, but that is in a seperate thread . Fortunately, I also have a real nice M44 that ISN'T a Molot. The one I am getting from Wideners will most likely be a shooter.

Now, as to these guns from Classic...I have purchased a 91/30 from them and out of all the Mosins I have, it has the WORST bore. Classic USED to offer a hand select option for their rifles. I notice these new M38s don't have that option. I suspect Classic has done away with that option for ALL their guns, but I could be mistaken there. I would NOT buy ANY gun from Classic unless they had a "hand select for bore" option. Their descriptions of "excellent overall condition" does NOT include the bore. Sorry, but I'm a stickler for nice bores. I am hoping that J&G Sales gets restocked with Mosins in the future. They DO offer hand select for bores and I will scarf one up immediately.

I tend to agree with JayPoc as far as the re-conditioning of these rifles. If the rifle was stripped down and re-assembled into what amounts to a new rifle from parts, that would be a deal breaker. But if all they are doing is wiping them down and putting their stamp on them, no biggie. I can live with that. There may come a point, and it may happen sooner than later, when we can't be so finicky about these rifles. I also think that the "collector distinction" varies greatly from one person to another. I mean if someone buys a plastic stock and Crazy Glues on a pistol grip and adds an optic sight to the gun, yet saves all the original parts, has he ruined the gun? I don't think so. It can easily be converted back to original condition. And some Mosin owners ARE both collectors and shooters. I am one of them. And I can tell you right now I am seriously considering putting some kind of "scout optic" on a gun to improve my shooting. My eyes sure ain't what the used to be and a little assist would help a lot.

Now, something that everyone has missed are the sling mounts on these guns from Classic. My eyes are bad, but they DID spot a strange sling mount configuration. It looks like Fin-style loops exist on one of the guns in the picture. I may be new to Mosins, but I sure never saw either an M38 or an M44 with loop-style sling mountings.
I'd post a link, but Classic doesn't allow it. Just look at the picture of the two M38s on the far right. Kinda makes me wonder.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Nothing Classic does is likely to surprise me after the chrome rifles.

[Deputy]

Nothing Classic does is likely to surprise me after the chrome rifles.

I'm holding out for the "pinkies".

[Junk Yard Dog]

Hmmm......OK......

[Darryl]

We don't "have to accept"anything unless it meets the definition of a "unaltered Military surplus rifle".

A rifle goes from a "military rifle" when it leaves the hands of the government that owned it. At that exact point it becomes a "military surplus rifle". Once it is altered permanently by drilling it or refinishing it (by anyone) it become a "altered military surplus rifle". It has been Bubba'd and it can't go back and it's value drops. Collectors rarely collect an altered military surplus rifle unless it is so rare that its rarity overcome it alterations. That is a very rare thing to find, and is almost impossible in a refurbished rifle.

Those are are standards here. That is how we setup this Board (forums), and we stick to that standard. "IF" Molot is altering these rifles, they will not be allowed in the "collectable Mosin forum" (same as a sportster). They may be allowed else where and we have not determined that yet because frankly, we don't really know if we even have a problem yet. We will make that determination later if needed. But those are our standards here. We are primarily a "Preservation and Collectors" Board. Now there are plenty of other forums that allow these rifles along with hack sawed rifles on their forums, and that is OK. That is there house and their rules. We don't dictate to them what is allowed on their Board (forums). They are free and don't need our permission as to what is allowed on their forums.

So this discussion is just to try and find some information on Molot and what they are doing to these rifles. It is not our goal to tell Molot (or anyone) that they can't sell or buy these rifles if they are altered. That is Molot's choice along with your choice.

For "us" to close our eyes and not ask questions is not acceptable. It is what collectors do......... and expect from this Board (forums).

Dolk

[redeuce]

The reason there is no hand select on these is that they are boxed individually at Molot. They say it is "luck of the lottery", nothing opened, nothing checked.

Well if Wideners M44s are Molots, I will know pretty soon. A few of us have them on order from Windeners. That whole ordering process seems a bit flakey from them, but that is in a seperate thread . Fortunately, I also have a real nice M44 that ISN'T a Molot. The one I am getting from Wideners will most likely be a shooter.

Now, as to these guns from Classic...I have purchased a 91/30 from them and out of all the Mosins I have, it has the WORST bore. Classic USED to offer a hand select option for their rifles. I notice these new M38s don't have that option. I suspect Classic has done away with that option for ALL their guns, but I could be mistaken there. I would NOT buy ANY gun from Classic unless they had a "hand select for bore" option. Their descriptions of "excellent overall condition" does NOT include the bore. Sorry, but I'm a stickler for nice bores. I am hoping that J&G Sales gets restocked with Mosins in the future. They DO offer hand select for bores and I will scarf one up immediately.

I tend to agree with JayPoc as far as the re-conditioning of these rifles. If the rifle was stripped down and re-assembled into what amounts to a new rifle from parts, that would be a deal breaker. But if all they are doing is wiping them down and putting their stamp on them, no biggie. I can live with that. There may come a point, and it may happen sooner than later, when we can't be so finicky about these rifles. I also think that the "collector distinction" varies greatly from one person to another. I mean if someone buys a plastic stock and Crazy Glues on a pistol grip and adds an optic sight to the gun, yet saves all the original parts, has he ruined the gun? I don't think so. It can easily be converted back to original condition. And some Mosin owners ARE both collectors and shooters. I am one of them. And I can tell you right now I am seriously considering putting some kind of "scout optic" on a gun to improve my shooting. My eyes sure ain't what the used to be and a little assist would help a lot.

Now, something that everyone has missed are the sling mounts on these guns from Classic. My eyes are bad, but they DID spot a strange sling mount configuration. It looks like Fin-style loops exist on one of the guns in the picture. I may be new to Mosins, but I sure never saw either an M38 or an M44 with loop-style sling mountings.
I'd post a link, but Classic doesn't allow it. Just look at the picture of the two M38s on the far right. Kinda makes me wonder.

[Deputy]

Collectorism is relative. Or as Bill Clinton says, "it all depends on what "is" is"

Ask JYD if you don't believe me, but M1 Garand collectors turn their noses up at any Garand that has an importer's mark on it. That would disqualify a HUGE amount of the Mosins brought into this country. The import stamp to Garand owners tarnishes it's collectability and value. However, now that many makers of Garands have become exceptionally scarce, as in International Harvester and Winchester, even imported Garands by those makers have now become in demand and VERY expensive. Times change and you just have to change with the times. No way around it.

There is also a big hubub in the Garand community about stock marks. There is a cottage industry that makes stamps and does the stamping of Garand stocks that don't have any inspector or proof stamps on them. A "correct" Garand that has those stamps is worth a small fortune. You could buy 40 or MORE Mosins for the price of a correct Winchester Garand with the correct proof and acceptance stamps. Faking of these guns is widespread. And the fakers are getting VERY good at what they do.

[Deputy]

[quote="redeuce"]The reason there is no hand select on these is that they are boxed individually at Molot. They say it is "luck of the lottery", nothing opened, nothing checked.
[quote]

This I know. It's also the reason why I won't buy one. I don't like gambling. I have no "luck".

[MarksmanTim]

Well this may be old information for some, but I found this document today that specifically amends the old import ban and allows (by name) the importation of our beloved Mosins from Russia and the old states, so I don't see how that is/was an issue. The statement that they need to make them fit a "sporting rifle" description doesn't work for the US for these long guns. Maybe there are EU export laws, as someone mentioned somewhere, that is making it harder to export to the US from Russia...
Further research to follow.

http://www.ttb.gov/rrd/tdatf6.htm

[Darryl]

Collectorism is relative. Or as Bill Clinton says, "it all depends on what "is" is"

Ask JYD if you don't believe me, but M1 Garand collectors turn their noses up at any Garand that has an importer's mark on it. That would disqualify a HUGE amount of the Mosins brought into this country. The import stamp to Garand owners tarnishes it's collectability and value. However, now that many makers of Garands have become exceptionally scarce, as in International Harvester and Winchester, even imported Garands by those makers have now become in demand and VERY expensive. Times change and you just have to change with the times. No way around it.

There is also a big hubub in the Garand community about stock marks. There is a cottage industry that makes stamps and does the stamping of Garand stocks that don't have any inspector or proof stamps on them. A "correct" Garand that has those stamps is worth a small fortune. You could buy 40 or MORE Mosins for the price of a correct Winchester Garand with the correct proof and acceptance stamps. Faking of these guns is widespread. And the fakers are getting VERY good at what they do.

Has no bearing on what we do here.

Garand collectors have been doing that for years. That is nothing new...for them. Times do change, and you don't have to change with them. Not if the way you set your goals up is correct. We will never accept a bubba rifle here in the collectors (preservation) forums. If you are waiting for that to happen, it's not. Like I said, there are other forums that allow that and they are not preservation forums or collectors forums. But in the Preservation forums (here), we have a clear view of what a Military surplus rifles is and want can and can't be done to it without destroying it.

And only Clinton can get away with that.

[MarksmanTim]

As for the part about Molot not disclosing information, leaving a "cloud" over them, I can understand why. They are utilizing some loop hole in a law somewhere to make it legal for them to import these and make lots of money. Why would they expose the loop hole, themselves for exploiting it, or otherwise draw unwanted international attention to themselves just to satisfy the purists when there are plenty of other people out there willing to buy them, regardless of the story?

They have nothing to gain, which is why unless someone can get on the inside (probably literally) to see what they are doing, we will likely never know.

Until further information (facts) come out, I cannot say without doubt that these Molot long guns have been recently refinished/redone/refurbished. So, how does the saying go? If it looks like a Milsurp, smells like a Milsurp, shoots like a Milsurp, then it IS a Milsurp?

The debate continues...

[redeuce]

As long as I have numerous places to but, I'm going to leave Molot products to you guys.........................................

[Darryl]

As for the part about Molot not disclosing information, leaving a "cloud" over them, I can understand why. They are utilizing some loop hole in a law somewhere to make it legal for them to import these and make lots of money. Why would they expose the loop hole, themselves for exploiting it, or otherwise draw unwanted international attention to themselves just to satisfy the purists when there are plenty of other people out there willing to buy them, regardless of the story?

They have nothing to gain, which is why unless someone can get on the inside (probably literally) to see what they are doing, we will likely never know.

Until further information (facts) come out, I cannot say without doubt that these Molot long guns have been recently refinished/redone/refurbished. So, how does the saying go? If it looks like a Milsurp, smells like a Milsurp, shoots like a Milsurp, then it IS a Milsurp?

The debate continues...

That is their (Molot) choice. They can continue to not give any responses at all. As long as they do, then we have the right to not trust them and not allow them on here. We are not telling you or anyone you can not buy them. That is your choice and your conscience. But we can keep them off here if that is what Molot is happy with.

We don't pretend to think we can force Molot to do anything just for us "purists". We don't care if they don't. That is their choice, but they don't tell us what to do here either. And I won't promote a rifle that I have doubts about.

"If it stinks it can't be a rose".

The debate will always continue........

[redeuce]

As for the part about Molot not disclosing information, leaving a "cloud" over them, I can understand why. They are utilizing some loop hole in a law somewhere to make it legal for them to import these and make lots of money. Why would they expose the loop hole, themselves for exploiting it, or otherwise draw unwanted international attention to themselves just to satisfy the purists when there are plenty of other people out there willing to buy them, regardless of the story?

They have nothing to gain, which is why unless someone can get on the inside (probably literally) to see what they are doing, we will likely never know.

Until further information (facts) come out, I cannot say without doubt that these Molot long guns have been recently refinished/redone/refurbished. So, how does the saying go? If it looks like a Milsurp, smells like a Milsurp, shoots like a Milsurp, then it IS a Milsurp?

The debate continues...

Disclosing the loophole- nobody cares. We want to know if they are picking up a forced match arsenal refurb, wiping it off, putting a stamp on it, and shipping it- or- there's a big pile of Izhevsk parts and Tula parts and they are "refurbishing" a refurb. That's a simple question to answer. The lack of disclosure puts a stink on it. There is a U.S. office for Molot. Call them and give us the answer..........................................................google it.

[redeuce]

speaking of M38's, I see SOG has M44's again.........less than 500...............$259

[Paul_1952]

I ordered one of these M38's just the other day from Classic, so we'll see what 'it's' story is once I get it in hand. If it's 'Beautiful' as has been said in the description it'll be a nice contrast to the Type 53 I just got from Bud's. It's really beat to hell and has definitely seen battle!

[Darryl]

As for the part about Molot not disclosing information, leaving a "cloud" over them, I can understand why. They are utilizing some loop hole in a law somewhere to make it legal for them to import these and make lots of money. Why would they expose the loop hole, themselves for exploiting it, or otherwise draw unwanted international attention to themselves just to satisfy the purists when there are plenty of other people out there willing to buy them, regardless of the story?

They have nothing to gain, which is why unless someone can get on the inside (probably literally) to see what they are doing, we will likely never know.

Until further information (facts) come out, I cannot say without doubt that these Molot long guns have been recently refinished/redone/refurbished. So, how does the saying go? If it looks like a Milsurp, smells like a Milsurp, shoots like a Milsurp, then it IS a Milsurp?

The debate continues...

Disclosing the loophole- nobody cares. We want to know if they are picking up a forced match arsenal refurb, wiping it off, putting a stamp on it, and shipping it- or- there's a big pile of Izhevsk parts and Tula parts and they are "refurbishing" a refurb. That's a simple question to answer. The lack of disclosure puts a stink on it. There is a U.S. office for Molot. Call them and give us the answer..........................................................google it.

We already have.....no responce.

[redeuce]

10-4.................interesting.

[Deputy]

As for the part about Molot not disclosing information, leaving a "cloud" over them, I can understand why. They are utilizing some loop hole in a law somewhere to make it legal for them to import these and make lots of money. Why would they expose the loop hole, themselves for exploiting it, or otherwise draw unwanted international attention to themselves just to satisfy the purists when there are plenty of other people out there willing to buy them, regardless of the story?

They have nothing to gain, which is why unless someone can get on the inside (probably literally) to see what they are doing, we will likely never know.

Until further information (facts) come out, I cannot say without doubt that these Molot long guns have been recently refinished/redone/refurbished. So, how does the saying go? If it looks like a Milsurp, smells like a Milsurp, shoots like a Milsurp, then it IS a Milsurp?

The debate continues...

That is their (Molot) choice. They can continue to not give any responses at all. As long as they do, then we have the right to not trust them and not allow them on here. We are not telling you or anyone you can not buy them. That is your choice and your conscience. But we can keep them off here if that is what Molot is happy with.

We don't pretend to think we can force Molot to do anything just for us "purists". We don't care if they don't. That is their choice, but they don't tell us what to do here either. And I won't promote a rifle that I have doubts about.

"If it stinks it can't be a rose".

The debate will always continue........

Ummmmm...a clarification please. Are you NOW saying that if we buy, say, an M44, and it has a Molot stamp on it, we can't post pics or talk about it? Because there are a few of us waiting on delivery of our M44 carbines from Wideners and we have been looking forward with great anticipation to comparing what we get. Reference this thread:

http://www.russian-mosin-nagant-forum.c ... =5&t=10837

I had NO idea these were Molot-stamped guns. So now I get boned and can't talk about or post pics about it?
And what about other guys that have already purchased a Mosin that is Molot-stamped? Are they on the "outs" now too?