Classic has M38s

[Darryl]

The ad says Molot has refinished these M38's. If you take that as the truth, .......then Molot is no different than Michell's.

If this it true,........... then if you accept these Molot refinished rifles, then you have to accept Mitchell's Mausers. Same thing. Neither are an arsenal. They are companies that refinish military surplus rifles for a profit (according to the ad).

If you say it is OK for Molot to refinish rifles, then why would it not be OK for me to refinish and re blue my Milsurplus rifles? What would be the difference? These are questions you need to ask.

No one has decided or proved that the sniper rifles that Molot handled are "arsenal refurbished" or "Molot refinished". The parts are original, but the work done on them like the scope numbers and serial numbers all matched up has been done recently. Along with the refinish work. That is known. Sort of like Michell's does when it "humps" it's Mauser to make them all matching. Too many questions unanswered.

So, the question is.....what is preservation?.......and what is refinishing?

Dolk

[jeremyb]

Seams pretty cheap for a m38.

[jeremyb]

I sure hope they aren't making these

[Junk Yard Dog]

making them ...no...not at the price they are selling them for. Refurbishing them to look like Soviet era refurbs.....possibly.

[Darryl]

I don't think they can "make" them for that price.

Just like JYD said, they are stripping them and refinishing them. That is what the AD says. Same as Michell's does to their Mausers.

Too bad. I'd rather have on "before" it is refinished by Molot,...... and I'd pay the same price (maybe a little more!)

Dolk

[Junk Yard Dog]

Issued rifles have always been more attractive to me than refurbed ones, I like seeing history on the milsurps I collect.

[Darryl]

It says right in the AD that Molot refinished them. I don't think that can deputed now.

This is a preservation forum, it matters to us if Molot (a private company) refinishes them or if the Arsenal ( a Russian government agency) refurbished them. Big difference. If it didn't matter, we would say it is OK for anyone to refinish it, including me. If accepted, then we have to also accept Mitchell's Mausers and their Lugers or be made out as hypocrites.

This is not really a "shooting forum" however, we do discuss it here, we are about Collecting and Preservation. Shooting has no bearing on "preservation" or our policies. You can shoot a Mitchell's Mauser also, that don't make it a collectable. It's a tough subject, but we have to face it. Discussion is good and will give us a handle as to if these rifles fit into "preservation" or not.

But you can't turn a blind eye to what they are doing just because you want a cheap M38. They are "refinishing" these rifles. If you can't see the difference between them doing it and the arsenal doing it, then where do you draw the line? Anyone can do it? Preservation draws the line at the point where the rifle left the governments hands. Anything before that is part of a "military surplus rifle". Anything after that is altering a "military surplus rifles finish".

Hard subject........

Dolk


I'm taking one side of this conversation on purpose. To try and get some discussion on these rifles. But some one needs it defend the "Preservation" views here (seeing that is what we are about here). I see the non collectors side and or shooters side. I'm not saying it is wrong, but is is only one side and may not always be in sync with this forums values. So where do you stand?

[JayPoc]

It says right in the AD that Molot refinished them. I don't think that can deputed now.

Who cares what the Ad says? Ads for acne medicine say you'll get a date with the best looking girl in school. Ads for Turtle Wax say you can turn your 1994 Tempo into a show car for $6.99.

What we need to find out is what Molot says they are doing to them. If they are simply pulling out old stored government arsenal refurbs, wiping the grease off and slapping on their logo, and packing them up and sending them over, then I don't see anything at all wrong with it. Its no different than any of the refurbs.

On the other hand, if they're taking old beaters and parts, and reworking them themselves today, that's obviously a different animal. Institutionalized bubbanization is still bubbanization.

I doubt the owners of Classic really have any idea what Molot does to bring these rifles to market...Is there any reliable info on this company out there?

[BuckeyeSgt]

Just them slapping the Molot emblem on them makes them way less appealing to me. If they slapped it on there 50 years ago maybe.

[JayPoc]

Just them slapping the Molot emblem on them makes them way less appealing to me. If they slapped it on there 50 years ago maybe.

Well, both my refurbs have the importer mark engraved in them...how is the Molot mark any different?

[Longcolt44]

Just them slapping the Molot emblem on them makes them way less appealing to me. If they slapped it on there 50 years ago maybe.

Well, both my refurbs have the importer mark engraved in them...how is the Molot mark any different?

If you notice, there is an import stamp also on your rifles. MOLOT is not an importer,an import stamp is required by law, it is a maker of firearms.
Read their ad for their KO 91/30's. It states they are made after the design of...http://molot.biz/product-e/ko91-30m.php
Bottom line for me is as a collector of original Mosnt Nagant rifles and their variants, I don't and will not recognize them as a collectable. MY feeling only at this point.

[JayPoc]

Just them slapping the Molot emblem on them makes them way less appealing to me. If they slapped it on there 50 years ago maybe.

Well, both my refurbs have the importer mark engraved in them...how is the Molot mark any different?

If you notice, there is an import stamp also on your rifles. MOLOT is not an importer,an import stamp is required by law, it is a maker of firearms.
Read their ad for their KO 91/30's. It states they are made after the design of...http://molot.biz/product-e/ko91-30m.php
Bottom line for me is as a collector of original Mosnt Nagant rifles and their variants, I don't and will not recognize them as a collectable. MY feeling only at this point.

I *think* we're talking about two different things. The add you linked shows what appear to be a new production based on the M-N design. A replica basically. The m38s, like the m44s they also have available appear to be actual, refurbed originals. And for the record, the pictures on the Classic site do not show any additional import marks...just the molot mark. Their could be additional marks, but they are not evident in the pictures. It looks to me like Molot is basically just acting as the importer for these carbines...

I'd definitely like to know for sure...

[Darryl]

Just them slapping the Molot emblem on them makes them way less appealing to me. If they slapped it on there 50 years ago maybe.

Well, both my refurbs have the importer mark engraved in them...how is the Molot mark any different?

The import mark is not the issue here. I could care less about that because the BATF requires them to do that and any imported rifle.

We are talking about a private Russian company "refinishing" "military surplus" rifles. Just like Mitchell's does. Do you accept Mitchell's? (if you don't know who Mitchell's is, you should look into it before responding)

It is a hard question......


There is no reason to get all ticked off about any of this discussion. I am trying to open a discussion on this. I am not trying to single anyone out, and want to hear opinions. But if "I'm" not allowed to respond on my own forums, then what is the point?

So take it easy, I am not "after anyone or trying to knock anyone's points, I'm fishing for opinions. But I will ask hard questions if I need to. Just be cool! I am listening to everyone.

dolk

[JayPoc]

Just them slapping the Molot emblem on them makes them way less appealing to me. If they slapped it on there 50 years ago maybe.

Well, both my refurbs have the importer mark engraved in them...how is the Molot mark any different?

The import mark is not the issue here. I could care less about that because the BATF requires them to do that and any imported rifle.

We are talking about a private Russian company "refinishing" "military surplus" rifles. Just like Mitchell's does. Do you accept Mitchell's? (if you don't know who Mitchell's is, you should look into it before responding)

It is a hard question......


There is no reason to get all ticked off about any of this discussion. I am trying to open a discussion on this. I am not trying to single anyone out, and want to hear opinions. But if "I'm" not allowed to respond on my own forums, then what is the point?

So take it easy, I am not "after anyone or trying to knock anyone's points, I'm fishing for opinions. But I will ask hard questions if I need to. Just be cool! I am listening to everyone.

dolk

Thats what I am asking. Are they "refinishing" them like Mitchell's, or are they simply acting as the importer with regards to these specific carbines? From what I've read, the answer to my question is unclear...

[Darryl]

I *think* we're talking about two different things. The add you linked shows what appear to be a new production based on the M-N design. A replica basically. The m38s, like the m44s they also have available appear to be actual, refurbed originals. And for the record, the pictures on the Classic site do not show any additional import marks...just the molot mark. Their could be additional marks, but they are not evident in the pictures. It looks to me like Molot is basically just acting as the importer for these carbines...

I'd definitely like to know for sure...

I don't think they are "replicas". No where does it say they are replicas. They say they are "Arsenal Refinished by Molot".

That is clear. They could not make a M38 replica from scratch and sell it for that amount I don't think. And Molot has been getting the snipers form Russia because they can do it and have figured out how to get around the ban on Russian firearms imports that has been in effect for years now.

This is were they are probably getting the M38 now. Russia.

It looks to me (from the description on the Ad) that they are getting Russian M38's and refinishing them (from the Ad) and I don't care who is importing them. Maybe them, maybe someone else. Doesn't matter.

If you take the Ad as the truth, they are refinishing Military Surplus rifles. Unless someone has other info? Who refinishes a military surplus rifle does make a difference here. Arsenal it OK because it is part of the life of a military rifle. After it leaves the hands of the Government it is refinishing a Military surplus rifle.

If these are indead a refinished surplus military rifle, then who has the right to do this? Molot? Mitchell's, Me? You? what's the difference?



Dolk

[JayPoc]

I *think* we're talking about two different things. The add you linked shows what appear to be a new production based on the M-N design. A replica basically. The m38s, like the m44s they also have available appear to be actual, refurbed originals. And for the record, the pictures on the Classic site do not show any additional import marks...just the molot mark. Their could be additional marks, but they are not evident in the pictures. It looks to me like Molot is basically just acting as the importer for these carbines...

I'd definitely like to know for sure...

I don't think they are "replicas". No where does it say they are replicas. They say they are "Arsenal Refinished by Molot".

That is clear. They could not make a M38 replica from scratch and sell it for that amount I don't think. And Molot has been getting the snipers form Russia because they can do it and have figured out how to get around the ban on Russian firearms imports that has been in effect for years now.

This is were they are probably getting the M38 now. Russia.

It looks to me (from the description on the Ad) that they are getting Russian M38's and refinishing them (from the Ad) and I don't care who is importing them. Maybe them, maybe someone else. Doesn't matter.

If you take the Ad as the truth, they are refinishing Military Surplus rifles. Unless someone has other info? Who refinishes a military surplus rifle does make a difference here. Arsenal it OK because it is part of the life of a military rifle. After it leaves the hands of the Government it is refinishing a Military surplus rifle.

If these are indead a refinished surplus military rifle, then who has the right to do this? Molot? Mitchell's, Me? You? what's the difference?



Dolk

Lol..we're STILL talking about two different things. The link that LongColt posted is showing apparently NEW production M-N clone 91/30s. What I'm asking about are these refurbed carbines...And what I'm saying about that ad is you prbably CANT take it on face value...it's Classic's ad, not Molot's. I'm saying we need to find out what Molot is saying that they are doing to them, and then decide if we trust Molot.

Yes...there's a huge difference between something refurbed by Ivan back in the 40s for Russia's national defense, and something refurbed by Bubbanakov in 2013 to make a buck...

I just don't know what category these m38s and m44s fall into. That's the question....

[Darryl]

Thats what I am asking. Are they "refinishing" them like Mitchell's, or are they simply acting as the importer with regards to these specific carbines? From what I've read, the answer to my question is unclear...

I think it is clear. At least to me it seems to be. It says in the Ad they (Molot) are refinishing these rifles. It doesn't say they are importing or handling arsenal refurbished rifles. It says they are refinished by Molot.

I don't care if they are importing them. That doesn't matter. But I think they are refinishing them. It is consistent with what we have seen with he snipers and the M44's.

Dolk

[JayPoc]

Thats what I am asking. Are they "refinishing" them like Mitchell's, or are they simply acting as the importer with regards to these specific carbines? From what I've read, the answer to my question is unclear...

I think it is clear. At least to me it seems to be. It says in the Ad they (Molot) are refinishing these rifles. It doesn't say they are importing or handling arsenal refurbished rifles. It says they are refinished by Molot.

I don't care if they are importing them. That doesn't matter. But I think they are refinishing them. It is consistent with what we have seen with he snipers and the M44's.

Dolk

I wonder if I've seen the ad you're talking about? Do you have a link? The only ad I was aware of was Classic's ad linked by the poster who started this thread. Obviously, What Classic is saying about them is not necessarily the real story.

[JayPoc]

Thats what I am asking. Are they "refinishing" them like Mitchell's, or are they simply acting as the importer with regards to these specific carbines? From what I've read, the answer to my question is unclear...

I think it is clear. At least to me it seems to be. It says in the Ad they (Molot) are refinishing these rifles. It doesn't say they are importing or handling arsenal refurbished rifles. It says they are refinished by Molot.

I don't care if they are importing them. That doesn't matter. But I think they are refinishing them. It is consistent with what we have seen with he snipers and the M44's.

Dolk

I wonder if I've seen the ad you're talking about? Do you have a link? The only ad I was aware of was Classic's ad linked by the poster who started this thread. Obviously, What Classic is saying about them is not necessarily the real story.

edit...I went back to the original ad. The actual language is "arsenal refinished by Molot". So which is it, are they arsenal refinished, or refinished by Molot. To me, thats just sloppy semantics by the guy that posted up the description...we need a few of you experts to lay eyes and hands on the actual items in question. But yeah, I'd like to know what Molot says they are.

[Longcolt44]

I have tried several times to get an answer from MOLOT with no success. Here is Classic's contact information here, ask them for yourself...http://www.classicfirearms.com/contacts