Cleaning your rifle initially and after shooting!

[zeebill]

Bore Nazi's beware for I spend my time in the shop or the range but not cleaning the bore of my rifle till it shines and I can serve Supper on it. I use no water for I don't worship at the Alter of the Hot Water King. I gave that up after I stopped shooting black powder. It is the best and most complete way to clean black powder rifles and Black Powder is much more corrosive than the normal Gun Powder we use today. A certain small amount of powder is actually beneficial to the sealing of the bullet as it goes down the bore. Many bench shooters of today rarely if ever clean their rifles completely like many of you do. It becomes an ego thing. I can say my rifle bore is shinier than yours so I win the ego contest. But gee yours shoots more accurately I wonder why?

Ever wonder why people say if the bore is shot out try lead bullets versus the jacketed one we all shoot. They get so much bigger due to the explosion of the gun powder they will grab what little is left of a bore and the rifle will come back to axceptable accuracy. Now think of the normal jacketed bullet we all shoot in a Milsurp and make it surplus to boot. It won't swell as much and with a super clean bore will basically rattle down the bore going who knows where. If you didn't clean like you do it might actually keep that bullet from rattling down the bore and increase the accuracy. I know one old timer I see loading and shooting at the nearby range who only swabs the bore and wipes the end of the bolt off with oil. I asked what kind of oil he uses and he said back to me why would it matter? He said that day he stole his Wife's Singer Sewing machine oil because he had no open cans of motor oil. I asked if I could look at his rifle and peered down the bore to find a more that acceptable look and the bolt head looked fine too. I asked how long he had been shooting the older Savage bolt action and he answered 20 or 30 years he would guess. He kept it real nice in a soft case his wife sewed up out of two old turkish towels.

Gee no rocket science oils or cleaning and this guy was one dang good shooter for an old man with eyes that had to be going downhill at his age. That should tell you all what is required of this often discussed and much opinionated subject. If you think just a little about what I just told you maybe you will save yourselves a bunch of money and be able to buy a bunch more ammo and guns in the next year and laugh as hard as I do about what some people swear by in relation to this subject. Granted he never used corrosive powder or primers and I do so I use the Windex to get the primers and powder taken care of. I also use brushes which he professed to have never owned one of. I also use stainless steel brushes on occcaision with no fear of ever wearing out a bore and my reason for that is simple too. If you have a ball bearing spinning cleaning rod like any new expensive one is these days why do you think they use the spinning action? They want the brush to run paralell to the rifling to keep it from taking the edge away for the rifling and in essance the brush actually sharpens the edge of the rifling especially if it is harder stainless steel. The old fellow at the range just used a patch as he hot cleaned after
the range session and had a nice working bore to shoot with accurately. So you keep telling me about the right way to clean things and I'll keep laughing about how much extra money I have and you don't have when I outbid you at an auction sometime. To each his own but I will stay with what I know works and laugh more often. Think I'll go out for supper tonight like I usually do every night with my extra money. Bill

[Deputy]

Of course, it all boils down to personal preference and how you were taught. The "right way" to clean your rifle is whatever works for you. Uncle Sammy taught me how to clean my rifle because I was a city kid and never handled a firearm until I joined the big green machine (it was grren then, not cammo) back in 1967. We used brass brushes issued to us and military bore solvent and some weird looking stuff called LSA (looked like milky snot). It was joked by the Nam vets that if you used LSD, you went on a trip. LSA was used to KEEP YOU from going on "a trip".
We were also taught to keep our rifles from getting wet with H2O ANYWHERE, ANYTIME. LSA was designed to NOT wash off with water. That's why it was thick and milky-looking. If we were in the field or on road march and it started raining, we carried the rifle with the barrel pointed down. If we were crossing a stream and the water was up to our neck, we held the rifle ABOVE the water. If we went under, we made sure the rifle DIDN'T. Of course, our ammo was non-corrosive. I wasn't in WW2 or Korea. So we never even heard of corrosive ammo. Neither did the enemy for that matter.
Did Revolutonary War and black powder shooters use water to clean their guns? Probably. I don't think Hoppe's #9 or Butch's Bore Shine was available in the 1860s.
They really didn't have anything else but water to use on their guns.
As to cleaning the bore...again...for every testimonial like the one zeebill made, I can probably find five more endorsing keeping the bore clean as a whistle. As a matter of fact, many competition shooters shoot 5 rounds and then clean, repeat that over and over as a method of breaking in a new barrel. Here's one I found after a quick search:
http://www.rifle-accuracy-reports.com/b ... ak-in.html

Like I said...different strokes for different folks.

Dep

[Junk Yard Dog]

Both the NVA and VC would have been using Chinese or Russian ammo, the same shit we shoot as surplus today, and all corrosive. I have never met a former NVA or VC to ask them how they cleaned their weapons, but it would be interesting to know.

[Deputy]

Both the NVA and VC would have been using Chinese or Russian ammo, the same shit we shoot as surplus today, and all corrosive. I have never met a former NVA or VC to ask them how they cleaned their weapons, but it would be interesting to know.

All the NVA and VC I saw was using AKs or SKS. I don't think that was corrosive. At any rate, I never saw a gook pouring water down the barrel of his AK.

[Junk Yard Dog]

All the ammo the commies ever made before they started selling commercial ammo here was corrosive. It has the longest shelf life of any primer.

[Deputy]

Then they must have had chrome bores. Most of the bores I saw looked as good as or better than ours.

[Junk Yard Dog]

I believe they did.

[Junk Yard Dog]

The early type 99 Japanese Arisaka started the chrome bore idea rolling, didn't last long as they ran out of material to keep doing it by 1942.

[zeebill]

In reading many Civil War diaries of soldiers over the years there were points in battles where soldiers actually urinated on their rifles to free them from the chocking debries of Black Powder. Not exactly the kind of water I would like to play in while being shot at but I guess any plan in a storm that works. The Sharps rifle with rising block was particularly hard to keep from fouling the block and freezing the rifle making it useless.

How many times in Nam did your AR foul? The grunts I knew were happy to carry the AK's and other assorted stuff we had over the AR quite often because of that. It was eventually traced down to the wrong powders in the cheaper ammo the government was buying. Nothing but the best for the ground fodder I guess? Weapons for many years have advertised how they will tolerate bad weather and rain so I doubt that carrying an AR barrel down would have made any difference. Maybe with the Civil War musket running on black powder it might have made a difference but an AR running on normal gun powder (cheaper or otherwise) I doubt it would make too much of a difference. Most GI's I knew in SEA would keep their rifles under a poncho with them in the rain till the first time they were ambushed and after that they were out and ready all the time. AK's would shoot anywhere and any time regardless of conditions and drew much less attention when you were in the wrong place. The Swedish K's were much the same but were only 9MM versus the 7.62x39 which had a superior hitting power. Anyone I know who carried an M16 over there was cleaning constantly when the time to do it was there.

Like it is said above most of the ammo we found in Caches was Red Chinese steel core ammo which is and was corrosive. I really can not recall whether the AK's we had were chromed barrels or not? They were easy to care for and always shot when the trigger was pulled. Speedy sells a lot of products for higher prices advertising the way he takes care of his rifles and his method is sold too. Like you said it works for him so it must be his right way! Many ways to kill a cat, whoops I promised I would not use that saying!! Sorry about that Pahtu! Many different ways to get the job done and different folks do have different strokes but I always prefer the cheaper way that works. Something about the way I live I guess. Bill

[Deputy]

How many times in Nam did your AR foul? The grunts I knew were happy to carry the AK's and other assorted stuff we had over the AR quite often because of that. It was eventually traced down to the wrong powders in the cheaper ammo the government was buying. Nothing but the best for the ground fodder I guess? Weapons for many years have advertised how they will tolerate bad weather and rain so I doubt that carrying an AR barrel down would have made any difference. Maybe with the Civil War musket running on black powder it might have made a difference but an AR running on normal gun powder (cheaper or otherwise) I doubt it would make too much of a difference. Most GI's I knew in SEA would keep their rifles under a poncho with them in the rain till the first time they were ambushed and after that they were out and ready all the time. AK's would shoot anywhere and any time regardless of conditions and drew much less attention when you were in the wrong place. The Swedish K's were much the same but were only 9MM versus the 7.62x39 which had a superior hitting power. Anyone I know who carried an M16 over there was cleaning constantly when the time to do it was there.

Like it is said above most of the ammo we found in Caches was Red Chinese steel core ammo which is and was corrosive. I really can not recall whether the AK's we had were chromed barrels or not? They were easy to care for and always shot when the trigger was pulled. Speedy sells a lot of products for higher prices advertising the way he takes care of his rifles and his method is sold too. Like you said it works for him so it must be his right way! Many ways to kill a cat, whoops I promised I would not use that saying!! Sorry about that Pahtu! Many different ways to get the job done and different folks do have different strokes but I always prefer the cheaper way that works. Something about the way I live I guess. Bill

How many times did my (and the rest of my company's) AR jam? So many that when the chance came to exchange it for an M14 (and eventually an M79), I jumped on it immediately. We weren't permitted to carry an AK because of the distinctive sound it made when it fired. That sound was a "bullet magnet" and every GI in the area would shoot at it. Even after we (finally) rreceived the correct cleaning equipment for it, they still jammed repeatedly. The so-called "forward assist solution" was a complete nightmare. I don't know what idiot thought up FORCING a bullet into a dirty chamber, but the end result was one shot and then you had a total failure to extract and the gun was useless. Even with constant cleaning, the M16 jammed way too much for my liking. I guess that's what happens when you "downsize" a gun from a full size caliber (AR10 and 7.62NATO) to a varmit rifle cartridge. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the spectacular killing power of the 5.56 round...NOT! I saw VC hit multiple times with that bullet and they just shrugged off the hits. Same damn thing was happening in Somalia, and from what I hear, in Afghanistan too. You can't take a bullet that was made to shoot woodchucks and other varmits and expect it to work well on a human being. Okay, sorry for the rant. Just the mention of that mousegun sets me off.

[Darryl]

Conversation is going astray. Back on cleaning your Mosin.

This topic is "Pinned" to the top so new members don't miss it, so it needs to "stay on topic".

Thanks

Dolk

[Deputy]

I ain't never gonna pee on my Mosin no matter how dirty it is.

[Darryl]

Bore Nazi's.......

So you keep telling me about the right way to clean things and I'll keep laughing about how much extra money I have and you don't have when I outbid you at an auction sometime. To each his own but I will stay with what I know works and laugh more often. Think I'll go out for supper tonight like I usually do every night with my extra money. Bill

Bore Nazi's....Really? I find that offensive. We have given you (and everyone) lots of ways to clean your rifle here. We have allowed you to express your feeling here, and you call us Nazi's? OK

Well how about this, Your Brake cleaner you have pushed in the past costs how much? Well....water is free. I think I'll go to dinner tonight and not you.

How about your oil recommendation? I think I have said you can use just about any oil. But Bill, there is a difference in oil formulations out there. I will admit, just about any oil will work on the rifle, and that is OK. But there is a difference, or we'd be putting Remoil in our cars. But, I am right, any oil will work (I think I said that already).

But Nazi's......really?

Dolk

[zeebill]

I think I picked up the slang term Bore Nazi from Friends in relation to the Soup Nazi or something. I just kind of use it to explain someone who kind of takes it to the extremes on any subject or process. It is not a throwback to the WW2 termination in anyway. I found the Deputy's comments on the M16 very interesting even though like mine we kind of got way off subject. Sorry about that but my old mind (what is left of it) kind of wanders at times.

Oils ah yes! I will freely admit like the old timer I kind of wander to a bunch of different products and will also admit over the years hitting a bunch of Snake Oils along the road. That was when I worked for Dupont and my job included checking out oils for use on machines they operated. Cleaners are varied to in what I have tried. I just was like others curious what worked and what didn't. Amazing thing about it all was as again Deputy said most all methods and products worked. When I retired and was on a single and non-improving income price it became an issue and so I went with the cheapest and most available products that were around. No sythetics because I only shoot in good weather for the most part and temperatures were not a problem. Being I tend toward restoration and keeping things as I found them and also shooting them I tempered those facts together also. I wanted an oil that didn't change the color or anything on the stock too. I was interested in that because I am a total non-coordinated klutz and get sloppy with anything I touch. I ended up with Balistol because it is about 99% Mineral Oil and that is eviormently safe and hopefully won't have an effect on my health too. Like I said I am sloppy!
Cleaners run the gammit, what ever is on sale and avilable as they all work and if you use Windex whether they work with corrosive powders and primers is immaterial. I tend to use a lot of Kroil Oil because I am familiar with it but I now have some questions about its over all effect on my health so I am dam careful with how I use it these days. I even use it to clean the bores on rifles, especially if I am hot cleaning outside right after shooting. In one of our outdoor shoots I found out Windex will freeze in the bore when it is very cold but other than that everything I mentioned seems to do what I want.

Like JYD mentioned I don't try and get my bores so I can eat off them and find the rifles all shoot just fine by me. I will try and restrain myself from using the term Nazi if it offends but it will take awhile I am afraid. I work toward not using the saying there are many ways to skin a cat because it offends my buddy Pahtu and I will put the Nazi term in there and try. Bill

[Junk Yard Dog]

Bucky the shop cat didn't much care for that skin the cat bit either, I said it out loud and he left the room.

[Darryl]

I just kind of use it to explain someone who kind of takes it to the extremes on any subject or process. Bill

I would say that you are talking about yourself.

We (all of us) have offered many different types of cleaning methods here. I made that perfectly clear in the opening post when I made the opening post there are many different methods and yours is OK also. I also made it clear anyone can offer their advice here even if it is different (even though this is a "sticky" post). I think that is perfectly accommodating....... That is the opposite of "extreme", don't you think?

The only one that seems "extreme" here is you. You seem to be the only one that can not allow anyone else to have a difference of opinion, and you have to step in (every time) and try to force "your way". I have seen this thread about cleaning on many different boards (forums, including here), and it always ends in an argument because there is always a few that can't admit that there may be a different way (or even a better or cheaper way) to clean a rifle. I have no idea why people take it so personal. No one is attacking you....... and to use the term (Nazi), you know exactly what it will invoke.

I'm not a young man either (not even close). but I know better than to use that "term".

Now, back to the topic (without sarcastic remarks) or I will clean it off and start over.

Dolk




General Rules: (for all forums)
1. Please treat everyone with respect

[Deputy]

Okay, I don't think this was addressed yet (if it has I apologize and please point me to the right location), but if you do use corrosive ammo, is there a cleaner that is a good substitute for water? What I mean is can I use something like Butch's Bore Shine in place of water? That is the strongest stuff I know of to clean bores. Would it get the job done just as good as water when corrosive ammo is used?

[millman]

Okay, I don't think this was addressed yet (if it has I apologize and please point me to the right location), but if you do use corrosive ammo, is there a cleaner that is a good substitute for water? What I mean is can I use something like Butch's Bore Shine in place of water? That is the strongest stuff I know of to clean bores. Would it get the job done just as good as water when corrosive ammo is used?

You are trying to remove salts, and salts dissolve in water, not oil. Water, or a waterbased cleaner are what you need.

[Darryl]

Exactly

Two things happening when shooting corrosive ammo.

One is the "SALTS" in the primer when it goes off. Those salts are the "corrosive" part in corrosive ammo.

Second part is the powder residue. It is not corrosive, but should be cleaned in a reasonable time frame.

Anything that has "water" in it will wash off the salts. Any water based cleaners like Windex, 409, ...anything, will rinse off the salts. Even "water"! surprise!
But really, just about anything will wash off the salts...almost. That is why I suspect Hoppies will clean up after corrosive ammo.

Then you should (in addition to washing off the salts) clean the bore. Your choice of what you want to use to clean the powder residue out of the bore.


It's really that simple. There are a dozen different (or more) things that you can use to do the job. I say pick the cheapest, unless you have money to burn. If that's the case, call me!

But remember, as long as you clean your rifle as soon as you can after firing corrosive ammo (and you have a few hours really), firing corrosive ammo is no big deal nor is it any more damaging to your rifles as non corrosive ammo (if you clean it properly).

Dolk

[Deputy]

I guess I didn't make myself clear. I am looking for an ALTERNATIVE to water to clean corrosive ammo fouling. What I want to know is is there a COMMERCIAL bore cleaner that can be used instead of water. If not, then my alternative is GI bore cleaner, which was made specifically to remove corrosive fouling.
Or I just won't use corrosive ammo.