All Tula - But What Else? Lots of pics.

[martin08]

Just getting back..

As there was a request for the markings on base, mount and scope the Polish-stocked 1944 Izhevsk, I took some pics.

Not much on the base, but it does have the scalloped recess on the top rear of the rail's backside, as in Izhevsk production.





The mount has two stamps on the front, and one on the upper forward edge. Nothing on the back side.







The scope has only the original logo and number. No other stamps. Number does not match scope number on the shank.




The scope and mount, together.

[VinnAY]

This thing has the "b.s. detector" bells and alarms in the back of my head going off like Quasimodo on speed.

The mount is recent/current Ukrainan reprodicton with bogus "1958" marking, and base is either (maybe) post-war Soviet or (most likely) recent production - hard to tell without examining it up close and personal - with bogus markings that make it a lot harder to tell exactly what it is.

The stock is 1942-43 Izhevsk with bogus Tula star. I don't have one of my genuine 1943 DATED Tula PU stocks handy to compare but this one just looks wrong.

The scope with the 1965 refurb date is wrong for the rifle.

The sling is Russian.

Somebody who doesn't know (or care) what this rifle SHOULD look like went through a lot of effort to fool someone who doen't know what this rifle should look like.

It could be a real PU rifle that someone really azzed up, it could be one of the sniper proofed, non-drilled and tapped, "accuracy rifles" that someone made a fake sniper out of, or it could be a very poorly restored ex-sniper.

I would tend to agree with you, it's unlike any arsenal refurb that I've seen. The rifle is so meticulously put together, I mean so many fine details without the discussion of fake Tula stars. Some one, one person, sat there and made that rifle what it is. No Eastern European gov arsenal or worker produces that kind of quality. It's a gorgeous rifle, too gorgeous...as you say, bells and whistles go off for me for authenticity.

[martin08]

I would tend to agree with you, it's unlike any arsenal refurb that I've seen. The rifle is so meticulously put together, I mean so many fine details without the discussion of fake Tula stars. Some one, one person, sat there and made that rifle what it is. No Eastern European gov arsenal or worker produces that kind of quality. It's a gorgeous rifle, too gorgeous...as you say, bells and whistles go off for me for authenticity.

On the contrary, VinnAY. Radom arsenal in Poland puts out very high quality work. In fact, the metal refurbishment technique on this gun has nearly identical characteristics of another verifiable Polish Sniper.

Below are some pics of the gun in the OP (top), and a 1944 Izhevsk (bottom) which was refurbed and fitted with a Polish-made beech stock. Both barrels at the muzzle end have the lathe-cut marks polished/buffed on the exposed surface beyond the forestock.




Both war-time receivers are buffed to a smooth finish on the top and sides. The upper portion of the shanks also appear buffed before receiving the very deep and dark bluing.





Especially notice the difference of the original surfaces of the underside of the tangs, and the well polished flat surface of the upper rear.




And then, the rear sight leafs. Both are stripped to the 100m setting.





Very, very high quality arsenal work did/does happen in Eastern Europe.

[Junk Yard Dog]

I can attest from the arsenal unissued Polish M44 I own that the Poles made some very high quality firearms. I have had my hands on various Polish Mauser's and pistols as well, all of them displayed a high level of quality construction. These were not wartime produced weapons, the arsenals had time to do it right and that's what they did.

[VinnAY]

This rifle has no value beyond a top-end PU Sniper. Anything else is just conjecture and wishful thinking on your part that you have a rifle with some special lineage. There's little shred of any evidence to the contrary.

[martin08]

This rifle has no value beyond a top-end PU Sniper. Anything else is just conjecture and wishful thinking on your part that you have a rifle with some special lineage. There's little shred of any evidence to the contrary.

'Tis very lucky, then, that it was bought a couple hundred dollars behind the value of a top-end PU Sniper.

And please, give specifics. Most importantly, I need to know how such a serial number sequence appears on a barrel shank. Thanks.

[Jumperwire]

Still a pretty neat rifle you have there, Martin. Half the fun sometimes, is figuring out where they came from and what secrets they hold

[Rongo]

Still a pretty neat rifle you have there, Martin. Half the fun sometimes, is figuring out where they came from and what secrets they hold

I totally agree... Learning about it is half the fun.

[Darryl]

Martin,
Interesting enough, it shows a lot of the same characteristics of my Russian M44 rifle refurbished by Poland. A lot of them.

http://www.thedolk.com/M44_3411/index.html

It sure looks like it has some Polish influence to me, at least in some areas. But you would really have to be an expert to say for sure "proof positive" it is not. I only know of a couple people that has that kind of knowledge of Polish PU sniper rifles.

Dolk

[martin08]

That's one NICE M44, dolk. They surely make a gun look slick and clean!

IIRC, this one also has the mid-1960's refurbish date on an ink stamp inside the stock channel?


My beech stock has the date of "March 6th", but unfortunately, the year is smudged.

[Darryl]

Yes, mine has that purple mark on the stock barrel channel also.

It is a Russian rifle that Poland refurbished. Probably before they were making their own? But no one knows. That is the problem with some of these rifles. No one really knows for sure. So you can't really say one way or another. My M44 was not accepted at first until all the Polish M44 started showing up also and it was quite evident where it came from. So sometimes we have to wait until we get all the answers.


Dolk

[martin08]

So true, dolk. Some unique examples, such as your M44, are not the ordinary fare, and thus viewed with skepticism until or when an overwhelming preponderance of evidence can establish a category unto itself. Polish M44's are quite well known, today. And it's a concept of theory vs. established fact that should be followed in the collecting world. It keeps rumors, internet myths, and outright falsities at bay.

Therefore, in all of my posts on this gun on many forums, I have consistently stated that I "think" this sniper received a Polish refurbishment, and never claimed any fact as my own hard proof. The pictorial comparisons, the odd serial numbering of the barrel shank, and the accumulation of the gun's features are presented to open up dialogue on a possible genre of Mosin Nagants that are yet to be classified.

Of course, I realize that my theory will not be as easy to establish through an accumulation of evidence, as that which transpired with the Polish M44's. There are just too few examples of Polish refurbished Snipers to make a case. In fact, I could find reference to only one other gun with a similar configuration (Soviet stock), and unfortunately, the pictures are not still up in the following thread.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread. ... ish+sniper

So, I'm not holding my breath until a large verifiable batch of these suddenly appear. On the contrary, I would think that very few of them exist, if in fact the Polish refurbishment of Soviet snipers (using Soviet stocks) was an established practice. My thoughts from my own observations are put forward, to be entertained as a real possibility or pure fantasy. I understand, and fully accept, skepticism.

But it is fun to entertain theories, as long as one does not claim the findings as gospel. Collecting knowledge grows in this atmosphere. At the other end of the spectrum, utter disbelief and complete dismissal of oddities in the world of collecting only cultivate closed minded stagnation. But I suppose that there is room for everybody's opinion. I just choose to remain open, presenting what I can see and compare on this truly gorgeous specimen.

And probably the most important factor - I like it, just the way it is. So, I'll keep it with the rest of the known, and unknown, categories of guns in the vault.

[martin08]

Having received the charge from another forum that the barrel shank was scrubbed and reworked to look original, I siezed the opportunity take some detailed photos of the shank. It's appropriate to share them here, as well.

So, if a barrel shank has had an original serial number scrubbed, there would be a deficit/divot/hollow where metal was removed. And the surface would show differing tooling and/or grinding marks.

First, it looks pretty straight across the profile.




Original lathe tooling marks can still be seen across the entire top of the shank without interruption.





And the clincher. With a straight edge and backlighting, no deficit can be detected on the shank.




I agree fully that the entire barreled action has seen buffing and rebluing. But there has been no scrubbing on the shank. The unusual serial number and the original logo are the only stampings that this shank has ever received.

[Junk Yard Dog]

I would agree, that looks unscrubbed, why in hell do people seem to want to believe someone would fake a Polish refurbished Soviet PU? I can see faking a Hungarian one maybe , or even a Polish made PU, but this is just a Soviet PU like thousands of others except it is refurbished in a far nicer fashion in another commie country were they were a bit more on the ball in the arsenals. Soviet weapons were distributed to all the WestPac forces, and of the iron curtain countries could have Soviet made weapons in their arsenals, especially Poland as the post war Polish government was the first the Russians set up and rearmed. I see nothing to indicate that this isn't exactly what it looks like, a Soviet Tula manufactured PU sniper that was refurbished in a Polish arsenal sometime post WW2, it was probably unissued when it was given to the Poles, and as Poland didn't fight another war after WW2, or field a huge army it has remained nice. Most likely the Pole's didn't refurbish it, but cleaned it up, you know what wartime Soviet finishes were like.

[bunkysdad]

To be so quick to throw out a negative statement like that and suggest that this has a scrubbed shank is crazy. It doesn't even remotely look scrubbed. Heck it doesn't even look scratched! That's ok, you know you're gonna get some of that. The only thing that bothers me is that until I get home I can't see all the pics because they are not loading on my phone. That's ok. Now I want to rush home. If anyone is gonna jump to conclusions let it be me, when I proclaim that this beautiful rifle has a future in the Showcase. Let the passage of time see if I am right. Excellent, beautiful, off the hook! 8-)8-)8-):P

[Simo]

OMG! I have never seen such a nice 91/30

[bunkysdad]

It is a beauty for sure. Very easy on the eyes.:-)

[martin08]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, bunkysdad. Per your suggestion, it has been presented for submission to the showcase, hopefully with taste, and without claims. Of course this gun has been controversial, and I fully expected that when I bought it. But it is too pretty not to be seen.

[Junk Yard Dog]

[Rongo]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, bunkysdad. Per your suggestion, it has been presented for submission to the showcase, hopefully with taste, and without claims. Of course this gun has been controversial, and I fully expected that when I bought it. But it is too pretty not to be seen.

To be honest I'm a big fan of this one... If nothing else it's been a great conversation with everyone going out of their way to try & nail it down.

Anyway.... It's now on the Mosin Showcase & on the index page. Great submission!!!

Mosin Showcase Submission

Showcase Firearms Index