Is it wrong

[zeebill]

Do I have to write my post on the black board five times now?

Starshina I have little or no faith in anything the Russians write or wrote about what they did during the Great Patriotic War because everything was written to glorify and point out how well a system that has failed was. So there goes what you read in my eyes right away. I would believe Lapin before them if you find that possible to believe? He writes to keep food on the table so I frankly find his motivation more logical at least The fact that the whole Soviet system guarded so many things and warped the facts routinely almost makes certain they are lying to the bitter end.

History is history you read and take it as a grain of salt till you keep seeing the same grains of salt being repeated over and over in reputable non-biased sources. Then you have mearly a concensus guess about what really happend. We never really know for sure unless we were there and watched it happen, then you have the simple fact that if ten people watch the same thing you have ten different stories and accounts of what happend.

If you ask my opinion of ex-snipers they were ordinary rifles which went through no extra checks for accuracy and had a scope mounted on them and were given to certain people who sometimes turned out to be good shots and other times were killed very shortly. What do I base this statement on? The Russians couldn't get enough infantry rifles out to the troops what in the name of heaven makes people think they had time to make special rifles for snipers? Anyone who was successfull became a hero of the state and if they weren't they are bureid over in Russia somewhere. This again is just my opinion and if you take the writings of Russians to be gospel then you have a different opinion which I can not agree with.

History can be both written and read by people of different educations, ranks, and positions in life but it is still history regardless of who does the deed. None of the things I mentioned makes any one in that group right or wrong but it does however make them responsible for what they say about other peoples reading and interpretations. It requires them to respect the others opinions and thoughts and somewhere down the line we hopefully come to a conclusion and concensus is arrived at too. Till then we just have opinions and nothing more. Bill

[Starshina]

I don't know where you get your information, but Russians are critical of their Soviet past more then you care to believe. We still have to own up to empowering, training and arming Islamic militants. I heard plenty of lies and spin coming from our government as well. I actually listen to both sides, while your mindset is still stuck in the cold war. I don't see how any of it is relevant to technical literature about Mosin rifles. Mosin snipers weren't just regular rifles with a scope, they had several other accuracy modifications in addition to bent bolt and cut out in the stock. However I back away from .75MOA specification for group, since I can't find that information where I thought I read it.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Lies and spin come from every government, they are either hiding something they are up to or covering up something they f***'d up. The difference is that in free countries the press can rip apart the story's and plaster them all over the front page for the world to see. For 70- years that was not the case in the USSR, they elevated lies and disinformation to an art form and it will be century's before it's all sorted out if it ever is. Nationalism never died out in Russia, and it is on the rise of late so I don't expect they will be stumbling all over themselves to tell the world yet more horror story's of Stalin and WW2, or letting us into the archives of Izhevsk or Tula. You know such archives exist, that kind of government recorded everything, commissars covering their own asses and documenting their enemy's failures to use against them later. How better to let Stalin know how good you were at ferreting out the enemies of the state than to write down every tiny detail. I am sure the meaning of every stamp is recorded someplace, and the entire story of the WW2 Soviet sniper production is there as well, it might take years to sift it out of all the CYA lies, and bullshit, but it would be there. No One from the west will ever get close to it, the Russians are getting tired of being reminded of all the horrible things the government did during the great Patriotic war. This is a government that sent men into battle with no military training or weapons, just used them to slow the enemy down a little so the armed troops could get into position. I do not see this same government having any problems slapping a scope onto an ordinary rifle and calling it a sniper rifle. No great deal of thought required there, just common sense, I can read the desperation of that time in the look of the beaver chewed late 1941-43 Mosins in my own collection, some of these rifles look like I made them myself out of scrap steel. That shows a level of desperation this country never approached except maybe in the South during the states war. In 1935 I can see Izhevsk taking time to build a sniper weapon, special selecting barrels, receivers and other parts, maybe even making special runs of barrels just for the program. In 1942 I just don't see that as likely, not with the shitstorm they had going on. They needed large numbers of PU's, and they needed them RFN, and they had neither time nor resources to get fancy. The Germans concentrated on making sniper rifles capable of winning Olympic championships, as a consequence they didn't produce them in large numbers, or field snipers in anything like the numbers the USSR did, nor did any other country during the war. Sacrificing quality for increased production is nothing unusual for the Soviets at any time in their history.

[Darryl]

I heard plenty of lies and spin coming from our government as well. I actually listen to both sides

This thread is way off topic now and if it continues it is not fair to the original poster and I will lock it. Either return to the original topic or it will be locked. There is no way to prove either side here and to continue "arguing" about the subject serves no purpose. If you wish to continue this conversation, take it off the forums (either to PM's or email ............ or leave).

Dolk
Owner / Administrator

[zeebill]

It is wrong and you are right! Bill :


That was not meant to be non-respectful, I am admiting guilt just so y'all know where I am coming from. Sorry if it appeared that way

[desdem12]

Not to get involved in this but wasn't there a scope rail on almost every AK made (later ones)? That leads me to believe the quantity theory.

[desertgunner]

Des, apart from repeating myself saying "Yes, it is wrong", the "Quantity Theory" has some merit, if you think of the short-lived SKS turning into the AK 47. But to my knowledge, the SKS was not ever railed or officially snipered.....
....the rest of my thoughts on this have no factual background, as snipering an AK 47 is a contradiction in itself for me.

[desdem12]

I have a grand total of scoped milsurps of anykind....0. total of all rifles including AKs sks and sporting...1 sporting 3006 that i gave to my son. I have no Aks and one SKS and a few mosins and mausers and assorted others.

[Junk Yard Dog]

I have only one scoped milsurp, you will have to guess what it is

[desdem12]

M1903 with a stock cut so short it looks like it is in underwear and the barrel shortened to 16 1/4 inches with a drilled and taped reciever and a monster 3x50x52 scope on it for shooting nats' asses....or is it a M52 PU in tip top shape, bringback

[WeldonHunter]

M1903 with a stock cut so short it looks like it is in underwear and the barrel shortened to 16 1/4 inches with a drilled and taped reciever and a monster 3x50x52 scope on it for shooting nats' asses....or is it a M52 PU in tip top shape, bringback

My money's on the underwear gun.